Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

Yes, really, see we post earlier this morning. She also aske you directly if you thought it should be a woman's choice up to term.

What's wrong with posting a photo of a baby born at 23 weeks? That's what they look like when abortion is legal in the UK and that's why it's not as 'simple' as some people are making out to change the law.

I agree with the laws as they stand in the UK, though I understand the theory behind allowing a woman to choose up until full term.

Why do you think that women should be denied this choice bumbley? I am not being goady I am genuinely curious how someone can disagree with allowing women abortion rights.

Most of the UK I should, sadly, add.

Because it impacts on another life. Basically.

If you're happy with the 24 week limit then why be bothered by the baby born at 23 weeks?

Not constitutional rights, no. It's not practical. In reality it leads to situations like my aunt was in when her baby died in utero and she had to wait a month to deliver as the agent that could induce her was deemed an abortifacient because of the 8th. It leads to extreme cases, like women being denied early chemo or certain surgeries, when it isn't as if this law has led to great advances in, say, interuterine surgery for foetal abnormality which you might expect it would if it was really what it pretends to be. The woman's life should always be more protected and in no way should the protection of pregnancy be favoured over treating a woman humanely or perverted to deny women the right to consent over medicak procedures to be performed on their body.

I am in favour of some protection, I would like to see cases where a man beats a pregnant woman and causes the death of an unborn child to be treated as murder (this happened to someone close to me) and to see the unborn counted when they die as the result of crime but I don't see how that is easily achieved either. I don't see abortion itself as a crime, and personally I probably prefer a 20 week cut off but I'm not sort of stuck in stone on that, I could easily be persuaded on any sort of compassionate grounds.

I think the woman's life and her right to choose is more important than the fetus, even at 23 weeks. in 2013 91% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks and 79% at under 10 weeks.

I am comfortable with that and want my daughter to decide whether she continues with a pregnancy or not, for any reason whatsoever.

I understand that you would not be comfortable with this. I respect your opinion, whilst disagreeing with it wholeheartedly.

"If you could write the abortion laws in Ireland , would would you decide?"

Same as Canada. No time limit specified, whether or not to provide an abortion is a purely medical decision between the woman and her doctors.

I don't think we need to have stuff involving time limits etc. in the Constitution anyway, I don't think there should be anything about abortion there at all - the fact that it's there is purely due to campaigning by a bunch of anti-choice activists in the 80s who saw how legislation was going in other countries and how opinions were changing here, and desperately wanted to copper-fasten it in while a majority was still against abortion to prevent future legislators introducing it without another referendum. Legal experts at the time (inc anti-choicers like William Binchy) thought the amendment was going to be disastrous and would possibly cause situations where women died, and they were right. We need to just repeal the 8th and then keep it out of the constitution. Give us proper legislation instead.

And yet again, we (the Irish people) didn't collectively ask for the current situation. Nobody under the age of 65 now voted for the 8th. Every referendum since then on the subject that has attempted to further restrict abortion has been rejected. We have never been asked about the "substantive issue" since the original referendum.

How many people on here live in the UK? I'm pretty sure Bathtimefunkster does, along with bertrandrussell.

I honestly think in a thread like this, which has bordered on the deeply patronising, lets face it, it would be helpful to see who actually is impacted by he current abortion laws in Ireland and actually has a right to vote on it. I do, for example.

I have debated this on Boards many a time. This debate on MN feels quite different, and I wonder if perhaps thats the reason.

"it would be helpful to see who actually is impacted by the current abortion laws in Ireland and actually has a right to vote on it. I do, for example."

Me! 42, was on the X case marches. Considering getting a t-shirt for my next demo saying "I can't believe I'm still protesting about this shit".

" it would be helpful to see who actually is impacted by he current abortion laws in Ireland and actually has a right to vote on it. I do, for example."

I don't have the right to vote. But I am "impacted". Because I am a woman and a feminist.

Sorry to hear about your aunt duplo I don't understand why they interpreted it that way - it's defending the foetus' right to life and the baby had died. That just doesn't make any sense.

Women can be given chemo even if it results in termination of the pregnancy. Although there are many more chemo drugs available now that can be used during pregnancy. I think in that sense they are more protected or at least are supposed to be because their treatment is supposed to take priority.

That's ok lumpy. I'm happy to agree to disagree. I know people have very different opinions about this and it is a very emotive subject.

"Considering getting a t-shirt for my next demo saying "I can't believe I'm still protesting about this shit".

I want one too. I would wear it all the time. If I could go back to my 17 year old self and tell her that nearly 40 years on we'd still be fighting the same battles...........

"I don't have the right to vote. But I am "impacted". Because I am a woman and a feminist."

Well, except you're not really, if you're not here. If you're not one of the people getting vaguely freaked out during pregnancy (as I was - Savita died while I was pregnant with DS2) that your doctor might not save your life "just to be on the safe side", or that if you get an Edwards syndrome diagnosis you'll be going to Liverpool rather than having your TFMR here. If you're not all too familiar with the history of the thing and the mindsets that are involved.

It's fantastic to have non-Irish people and non-residents as allies on this, and there are people in the UK doing amazing work like the Abortion Support Network helping women who can't afford to travel, but please please don't do the "we're going to come in and tell you what you need and SAVE you, little oppressed Irish women" thing. It's patronizing in other countries and it's patronizing here.

Ireland has had a huge amount of debate recently about abortion, so yes you have missed it.

I wouldn't bank on abortion being legalised anytime soon. A lot of people who voted for marriage equality would vote against legalising abortion.

Whereas most people know a Gay person and can sympathise with gay public figures who share their stories, there will not be the same level of sympathy and understanding for women who had abortions (apart from in the case of foetal abnormality)

Its frustrating because its such a huge issue for so many women.

On the plus side Ireland has shown that it is very willing to shake off the Churchs teaching so they won't necessarily lead the argumen.

I think it will be more about if people believe that life begins with conception, it will be hard to turn the argument around to womens rights.

"I want one too. I would wear it all the time. If I could go back to my 17 year old self and tell her that nearly 40 years on we'd still be fighting the same battles..........."

It's infuriating, isn't it?

Also wasn't saying above that you personally BertrandRusell were doing the patronizing great white saviour thing, btw, but I've definitely seen it from other commentators. Don't get me started on the Americans....

BertrandRussell, even. I can totally spell. Honest.

It's the ^language the anti choices we that betrays them- "Women can be given chemo even if it results in termination of the pregnancy."

Even if Well, thank you very much for that, you mean I don't have to risk leaving my existing children motherless because I happen to be carrying a potential sibling for them..........

"Even if Well, thank you very much for that, you mean I don't have to risk leaving my existing children motherless because I happen to be carrying a potential sibling for them........."

Totally agreed. It's like "look, we'll concede that it might be OK if it's to save a woman's life, isn't that great of us!".

Leedy, if that's what you put on the table and ask to be voted in you will most likely lose. Very few people would agree with that. The UK doesn't even have that and is more likely to go in the other direction and reduce the time limit.

"Leedy, if that's what you put on the table and ask to be voted in you will most likely lose."

That's not what I'd ask to be voted for in a referendum, though, as I said. I just want the 8th removed and preferably any references to abortion out of the constitution. Legislation is a different issue.

Btw, despite the lack of time limits most abortions in Canada (like everywhere else) are in the first few weeks. They have a very low rate of "late" abortions.

Bertrand - I'm using that terminology because we were discussing whether the law allows for that treatment - which it does. It's not 'pro-life' terminology.

It's fantastic to have non-Irish people and non-residents as allies on this, and there are people in the UK doing amazing work like the Abortion Support Network helping women who can't afford to travel, but please please don't do the "we're going to come in and tell you what you need and SAVE you, little oppressed Irish women" thing. It's patronizing in other countries and it's patronizing here.

This.

I found the photo of Savita patronising, cos absolutely no person living in Ireland needs to be shown a photo of someone who is in our heads constantly. It was a bit "Look what the Irish have DONE!" It didn't seem aimed towards us, tbh.

I'm sure they do Leedy. I'm by no means suggesting that all pregnant women would wait as long as possible to have an abortion just for the hell of it.

We have gone further than the UK or any other country in the World in asserting the equality of our gay citizens - not just by passing legislation but by amending our constitution so that equal marriage can't be threatened by future conservative governments.

JustAScreenName Britain is not blessed (or cursed) with a written constitution which can be amended: but do you seriously think a future conservative (or Conservative) British government is going to undo c.p. or same-sex marriage?

We abolished capital punishment in 1965 and decriminalised homosexuality in 1967 by parliamentary action, by the vote of the political elite, at a time when a referendum would certainly have said No in the first case and probably in the second. We would probably also not have had the Abortion Act 1967 if a referendum had been necessary. You in Ireland also abolished the rope and decriminalised homosexuality by Parliamentary action, not by referendum.

So each country has made what progress it can by what means it can at what time it can. The progress has not been even - but no part of these islands has ever turned back. Even NI has c.p. Whether they get better abortion laws or s.s.m. depends on their political process which does not allow for referendum. And I don't think an abortion law like that of GB would be approved by referendum in NI if there could be one.

There is no need to snipe at each other; we have all come a long way and have further to go. As and when we can.