Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

I object very strongly to the treatment of women in several countries that were once part of the British Empire. Is that neocolonial bullshit as well?

Bertrand, it was for Lucy. We were discussing the 'simplicity' of the abortion issue. Just showing why it's not that simple. There's another human entity involved.

So who was Savita's picture for? You've posted that photo twice on this thread now.

Sabrinna, as already discussed on this thread, she died from sepsis due to medical mismanagement.

Interesting thread. As many posters have said each time the Irish constitution was amended in terms of abortion it was amended by popular vote, as it had to be. So what does that tell you- Irish people like every other people in the world have different views on different issues ie gay rights and abortion. Perhaps the main difference to the UK is that the people, the citizens get to vote on these matters. Personally I think that's a good thing. Democracy and all that.

So if you are in favour of universal access to abortion and in favour of fetal 'rights' being discounted then you won't be happy with how things are now. So what do you do -the only way to change the status quo is to campaign for a change and convince a majority of the citizens to vote for your view.

There are promises to repeal 8th amendment after next election. But it'll require popular vote. There are also promises to legislate for access to abortion where there are foetal abnormalities. We'll see.

Obviously a popular vote to amend constitution is a vote by all over 18 years - women and men. So while it's easy to pontificate about anti women laws, half if not more of the people voting for them are women. And though clearly it offends some people, the vast majority of the people who vote for each side have genuine deeply held views whether they relate to women rights or fetal rights.

The point I'm making, very tediously, is that there is no easy way to bring in changes to constitution on abortion - to do so you need a popular vote. And as anyone whose ever campaigned on anything , as I have, will know, you rarely achieve a change of mind by insulting the other persons views, however misguided you think they are.

I really, really don't think Ireland is great in every way love to know where you are getting that from. I moved home to be near elderly relatives last year and have a lot of ambivalence about it, I was seriously wondering if I could stick it here if there was a no vote. I think Ireland has a huge amount of growing up to do and things need to change, and I've been clear I object hugely to the eighth and will continue to campaign vociferously for its removal (this is actually part of what goes on where I work now, there are masses of activists working on this in Ireland). I just think not seeing Ireland in its actual context and putting down such a massive sign of change because things still need to change is a huge problem and has the potential to mar campaigns for change. Particularly petty childish insults and shaming. They're sticks and people respond better to carrots. So if you actually give a shit about changing Ireland, it might be better to take a less inflammatory approach.

Saoirse you said it so much better than I did.

Good post saoirse.

If you could write the abortion laws in Ireland , would would you decide? Termination in emergencies/ foetal abnormality only or abortion on demand up to birth?

In secular UK non religious people's views differ hugely. From the two above positions with most people "in the middle". I know women who have never been to church in their lives disagreeing with abortion after 12 weeks.

Outside the world of mumsnet most women ( and men) want some restriction on abortion.

It's an emotive subject. With the increasing survival of very premature infants most people want a limit possibly connected to viability. There is an argument to reducing the time limit in the UK to 23 weeks, as there are 23 weekers survive.

And Twasthecat said it really well too:

I am an Irish woman who has had an abortion and was pregnant at the time of savita's death undergoing ongoing monitoring in the fetal abnormality unit, contemplating what I would do if the amnio showed the wrong results. If you're alienating the likes of me in the way you're conducting your argument - apparently one of the oppressed "less than human" women - I really think you're going to struggle with the rest of the population.

One of the reasons the marriage equality campaign worked was because it focused on people as people and encouraged people to feel good about voting.

Some pro choice campaigners have been very destructive in Ireland in the past by insisting that we talk about zygotes in ways that are alienating to people who don't conceptualise pregnancy in that way, particularly women who have undergone tmfr, families who have suffered infertility and infant loss etc. If we are to repeal the 8th successfully, getting people to see that it isn't about protecting the unborn, tgat what it says is that a medical professional can make a decision that a woman will die so the unborn will live without even discussing this with her family will be crucial. If people start spouting off about personhood laws and how Ireland is fascistly misogynistic it won't work. It hasn't in the past. The yes campaign for marriage equality made their subject human, approachable and positive. Pro choice campaigns will hopefully learn from this what works, though abortion will remain divisive.

If you always did what you always did, you'll always get what you always got. A positive empathetic human campaign to repeal the 8th might just work. Saying the Irish are dim twits who hate women and are stuck in the dark ages... Probably won't. And this thread smacks of 'slow clap, Ireland, try harder next time, we still know you're backwards little shits'. Not so motivational.

A woman's right to choose what happens to her own body is not something that other people get to decide on. If you disagree with abortions then you don't have to have one. However; you do not have the right to take that choice away from other women.

Goth, there's a lot of talk about 20 weeks.

"a medical professional can make a decision that a woman will die so the unborn will live without even discussing this with her family"

A woman's life still takes priority. They will not kill a woman to save the unborn. not sure why you think that.

Lumpy up to birth?

How many gynaecologists would terminate a healthy foetus up to birth? Yes the mantra it's no ones business what women do with their own body is true in theory. But you'd be asking a doctor to kill a foetus in one ward that would be saved and put in an incubator in another. I know lots of medical professionals and you'd struggle to find a doctor/ nurse to perform abortions on healthy foetuses post 24 weeks.

There are restrictions on what I can do with my own body, if I wanted to kill myself as a healthy woman no doctor would do that. It's my body. If I want to die , kill me.

It's a minefield.

I hope Ireland comes to vote on repealing the anti abortion laws but good luck with pleasing everyone.

But lumpy spaced princess it is something that other people get to decide on. You can say it isn't all you want but currently in Ireland it is.

So if you want to change it , campaign. But just saying 'I'm right. there's no argument here' is unlikely to hold much sway with people who disagree with you, and who hold their views just as strongly as you hold yours. Agree with poster above re ideas for new campaign.

Gothgirl, sadly yes. Some MNers take 'choice' to the extreme and think a woman should be able to terminate right up until the point the baby is delivered. It can be a bit strange here sometimes.

saorise, you're right. It's something other people shouldn't get to decide on.

bumbley, the idea seems to be that if women are given the right to decide what happens to our bodies we will all be terminating pregnancies 1 week before we give birth.

Why are you so fearful of other women? We are not idiots and can be trusted to make the right decision.

Not all but surely even one is too many? Why put wording in place that most women wouldn't even use but could allow for a healthy, full term foetus to be aborted? Personally, I think the vulnerable do need protection.

I also think it's a bit naive to suggest that all women can be trusted to make the 'right' decision. What if the 'right' decision for that woman was full term termination?

But life is what it is, not what it should be. And in Ireland, as there is a constitution with one specific amendment that is unworkable for most people, the point is that repealing that amendment is far, far more important for change than armchair pontification about the nature of life in the womb or saying how right you are over and over.

A constitution is not a bad thing to have, it is not some symbol of oppression AND ours currently has some amendments that need to be repealed as they make no sense in the context of a modern Ireland. And the only way that happens in a constitutional democracy is through popular vote. You don't win hearts and minds by telling people theirs are hard and thick. That's true the world over.

What? Naive to think that women are fully functioning adults capable of making decisions about their own lives.???

Shameful!

Naive to think that none of them would ever contemplate terminating a full term healthy foetus simply because they are a woman. ( the 'right' decision apparently)

What's the point in having it if you don't think anyone is ever going to use it anyway?

None of those things should be in the constitution. What needs to change most urgently in the constitution is that an unborn child's life is seen as equal to that of an adult woman. Personally I would rather we all could focus on changing that and worry about access to abortion later, which would be better served through legislation probably anyway. The whole thing gets so muddied when it becomes so extreme. Most abortions are not at all in this category.

Duplodon - do you not think a fetus should have any rights?

Anyway, who said anything about full term termination? I think most people would argue that it's possible for women to have the right to safe abortions without it being up to full term, which is very evocative and emotional.

I also think we should look after the vulnerable

Gothgirl asked about it. It is quite a popular view on MN.

Really bumbley? And there I was thinking you used the most extreme example you could think of to illustrate why women should not have control over their bodies, just like your picture you posted up thread.