Should I talk about this toddler group volunteer to his carer?

[RachelWatts]

I attend a weekly toddler group with 2 year old DS2.

The key holder of the toddler group is a learning-disabled young man, who opens up and sets the toys out, then stays throughout the session and packs away at the end.

I tend to arrive early, straight after the school run, and help him set up.

One of the 'rules' of the toddler group is that the slide and trampoline must be on a mat before the children use them, but because of the way they are stored, the mats are the last things out of the shed.

This morning, the trampoline was the first thing unpacked, so DS2 ran for it and tried to climb on.

In order to prevent DS2 getting on the trampoline, the volunteer grabbed the trampoline and pulled it away, which caused DS2, who was halfway onto it at the time, to be tipped off and he banged his head on the floor.

Not surprisingly, he cried, and the volunteer told him off for 'throwing himself on the floor'.

I picked up DS2, and while comforting him, told the volunteer that no, DS2 had fallen when he moved the trampoline, and hadn't thrown himself to the floor in a display of temper.

WIBU to talk to one of the care assistants at his home (who I know personally as we went to the same toddler group with our DC1s) about this incident?

I'm not sure this young man understands that in enforcing the 'no trampolining without a mat' rule, he caused the scenario which the rule is there to prevent, as a child fell off the trampoline and hurt himself (although not seriously)

johnny lots of posters have defended Rachel and we've gone on to discuss it a bit more. Rationally with Lots of differing perspectives.
I think a couple of pages back, l advised her to leave it.

I have sympathy for her, and for the volunteer. :)

Yes Feminine I see that
MrsDevere I just felt that she was getting a hard time for her replies, when all she was doing was responding to questions put to her. I disagree with her but she doesn't deserve some of the comments she got

If he didn't have LDs he wouldn't have a support worker I could wonder about talking to, would he?

Hedgehogs - my comment wasn't clear. I meant that if a NT adult had accidentally hurt my child, I would know how to talk to them about it. So I wouldn't need to wonder about talking to anyone else as it would be dealt with.

In this incident, I talked to him as I normally would have done, but I didn't get the reaction I expected and I was confused.

Thanks for the supportive comments, and the slightly more harsh-but-fair ones too.

It's past time I left this thread.

I thought that was you answer to how you knew he has LDs if, as you say, you don't know his diagnosis. Hence the

I am not going to 'pile in' though I agree with many of the posters, but it's been said already and if people keep saying it, then the OP, and others, have a great reason for not listening to the sense spoken.

I don't want that to happen. It's hard enough to get people to engage with disabled people as it is.

OP, I cope you recognise the causes of the incident beyond the one person.

I would say you've been given bad advice in 'think of him as a teenager' and i would try not to do that! It may have been meant helpfully but has had the effect of making you think he's not an adult in some way.

It's a trap a lot of people fall into - that carers are actually minders with ultimate authority over the disabled person.

I've see this happen over and over again, sadly, by people who are kindly and have the best of motives. Talking over the disabled persons head, making decisions that only the person concerned can make, or asking the carer to control or chastise the disabled person when they don't do what they 'should do'. Taking away independence and dignity, assuming they have less rights and freedoms than another 'normal' person.

I've had all of those things happen, not everyday, but enough to hurt like hell and cause barriers to being able to live a normal life. And I'm 'just' physically disabled, with no signals that someone could misinterpret (eg difficulty in speaking, uncontrolled muscle movements etc) Must stress that I'm not saying it's in anyway ok but people do make assumptions based on outward signs, symptoms and effects, wrongly, yet even without misjudging these things, just the label of disability is enough for all manner of assumptions and dodgy thinking... Just rubbish legs, back, neck.

I can't imagine how difficult life must be if someone also has a cognitive impairment or learning disabilities.

It's a common issue and one that needs education and visibility - people mainly do it out of ignorance or fear of doing the wrong thing.

Sometimes the problem happens when the non disabled person is trapped between having enough empathy to understand the potential impact of getting it wrong, and having no experience, training or confidence that they can get it right. And that chasm is responsible for a lot of terrible reactions.

So my advice differs slightly in that I think you could talk to the support worker, just not in the way you originally wanted to.

OP obviously you shouldn't be reporting back on this mans behaviour to his support worker, and you clearly know that now. But if you wanted, you could approach the support worker to ask for guidance on how to communicate effectively with him... Emphasis on you asking for guidance / education yourself vs a disguised complaint. I would think well of someone who admitted ignorance and wanted a bit of informal training. You'd need to make your intentions clear though. The carer may not have the answers but could at least steer you in the right direction.

And just for an extra rant as writing my last post brought back memories.

Do feel free to skip if you don't want a random detour off topic!

Here are some examples of when people have decided my carer is my warden, my ruler or my guardian, rather am a valued employee.

In spite of my physical illness, I'm a normal human being, just like you. Actually I'm in senior management, a professional in a position of authority and responsibility whose recommendations have weight, and credibility. * Yet in my private life the fact my body doesn't work properly regularly demotes me to childlike status. It's probably the single worse thing about getting a agonizing, debilitating, progressive, untreatable illness. Think about that for a moment... The single, worst thing.

• rereading this I can't believe I feel I have to use my job role as 'evidence' that I'm a functioning human with the same status as anyone else. How bloody depressing. But reading the stories below, I feel I have to justify myself as it would be easy to think there's a reason beyond the physical differences / equipment that marks me out as different.

Examples

1. A ticket salesperson at a train station shouting over my head to my PA / carer the other side of the room (waiting at the door whilst I queued) 'what's wrong with her, can she understand if I talk to her?'... Try fucking talking to me and you'll find out you ill mannered woman!

1. Have had a doctor ask my carer for permission for medical procedures on myself , whilst I'm in the hospital bed next to them. An unrelated employee is awarded more say over my body than I do? Wtf? Stupid bastard, I was told 'I should understand as he was just trying to be kind' as he thought 'I had enough to deal with'. Grrrr. A lot on my plate? Lighten the load by taking away my basic human rights and self agency - oh yes, that'll help.

1. Another HCP asked if I had parental responsibility over my son as she was confused as I had a carer with me to carry bags/ walking stick etc. She asked twice as she was still uncertain. That fucking hurt. Still does.

1. Telephone banking asking me to 'put my carer on the line' as they want to have a discussion over a fraud alert on my account, when I said they needed to wait until I'd got my diary open, and also would need to speak up as they were on loud speaker as I couldn't hold the phone due to my disability.

1. A carer answering the phone to landlord, and getting into conversation instead of just taking a message - they had a cozy chat and then decided between them to change my end of lease date. In spite of a signed and dated letter sent out, and without my consent. Carer felt I should be grateful as she was just trying to help. Landlord was angry as theyd 'been led to believe that carer can make decision on behalf of the disabled person'. I ended up losing £1.5k, I was too ill to pursue through the small claims court so had to just let it go... (& let the carer go too!).

This is my last post on this thread.

Hedgehogs - the comment you objected to was my response to someone saying this thread would not exist if the adult did not have LDs. Well, no, it wouldn't, because if he didn't have a support worker then I wouldn't have been able to post about whether to talk to that person.

If I hadn't mentioned his LDs and posted an AIBU , then I imagine a fair few replies would have told me to consider that maybe he had LDs or AS.

Finally, than you MiscellaneousAssortment for your extremely honest and thought provoking post.

Yes I get that now. I misunderstood because it looked like it was a response to 'How do you know he had LD?' Sorry about that.

OP I'm not sure if you'll read this but I was coming back to this thread to suggest two things. First, that you speak to his carer for the reasons Misc has put much more eloquently, so that you and the other volunteers can find the best way of communicating with him. Secondly, to suggest that you change the rules so that if a volunteer is late you don't put out the big equipment until they are there. If the only just make it before the group officially starts, then you could ask any waiting parents if they are prepared to wait a few more minutes for the big equipment to be set up or if they would prefer to start on time but just have toys out rather than try and do things which puts you in breach of your normal practices (and may jeopardise your insurance policy).
Also, whilst you say that there are no regulations which apply to this group, I expect that this man has had it explained to him that he shouldn't touch the children under any circumstances. For 10 years I was a child free volunteer in schools and pre-schools and constantly had it drummed into me that I should never touch a child and that if a child needed to be touched, for example, picked up if they had fallen over, I should call a member of staff to do it or, if they couldn't, should at least have them watch me do it.

I think this thread has jinxed me. I've just got back from seeing my support worker. She told me she'd had a call from the jobcentre about me wanting to go back to work. They wanted to know what I was capable of, what I couldn't do and what sort of thing I was looking for. She went with me when I went to register because I've never done it before and get stressed when I'm not sure what's expected. I had to go back to meet my adviser last Monday to discuss options. It was very strange because the adviser asked me nothing really other than where my support worker was. I said I only needed support doing something for the first time. Now I know why the meeting was so short. I think I may actually have steam coming out of my ears.

I feel that maybe an adjustment to the process could help avoid this in future.
Surely, since they are under other pieces of equipment, the mats are the last things to be packed up? Id expect them to therefore be easily reachable to be the first things to be unpacked the next time.
Make it a rule - the mats are the first things to come out and be put out.

Sometimes its easier to just try and remove the problem than argue over how to work around it.

Jesus hedgehog, how do you not go ballistic at them ?
Why do people not realise what carers do?
That would drive me crazy.
So basically you have no right to any confidentially at all

To be honest it's not really the confidentiality which bothers me. It's the infantalising (is that the right word?) and being marginalised which gets to me. The timing was also slightly freaky given that this is exactly what I was cautioning the OP against doing yesterday.

Agree that if he is trying to set the equipment up BEFORE the children arrived then it is not his fault if a child climbs on it. Not his job to supervise your child.

If he had allowed the child on to the trampoline and the child bounced off on to the floor the injuries could have been worse - and he would have been partly responsible. He tried to stop the accident - albeit clumsily - and your DS got a bump.

I also think you are using the fact that he has learning difficulties as shorthand for "It must be his, not my fault"

I hope that your DS is ok - not nice for a child to be hurt - but arrive a little later next time

Stormtreader I'd said that same thing a while back. If the mats come out first the whole thing is solved without anyone having to get the blame in future! Don't think anyone commented so maybe it's just too sensible a solution..

Bloody agreed zzzz

fuck them all

Hedgehog you poor love. Will write more soon, until then, see zzzz terribly important advice x

Surely the parent is responsible for their own children at groups like this? Keep an eye on the kid next time

OP, I think you have had a very hard time on this thread. I also volunteer to run a playgroup. We don't have any such procedures as you describe with 2 people setting up and one to look after the kids. There's just a couple of us (or very often just me) who turn up every week to get the job done. My DS is also coming up to 2 and you do have to have eyes in the back of your head when you're unloading a cupboard full of toys and equipment. I can fully understand why you reacted at the pace you did because you could see your ds was 'safe' ie acting within the realms of his own capabilities and unlikely to hurt himself even though what he did was 'against the rules'. In your situation I would have been asking myself exactly the same question regarding speaking to a carer.

Hedgehog I'm so sorry and angry on your behalf.

Quick caveat before I carry on - OP if you still reading, I hope you know I'm not lumping you in with any of the examples I gave or think you're the same as Hedgehogs person today.

I don't think anyone who isn't disabled can understand what a Big Deal this is. I wouldn't have understood before. It's horrifying how quickly your confidence, dignity, self agency and humanity can get stripped away. And it's not just annoying, or upsetting, it has a huge effect that lasts and lasts. It's awful and I know too well how quickly you feel excluded, not normal, not a 'real person' like all those other people.

Obviously those things are not true, but if people treat you like you can't be trusted, or don't have the same rights as other adults, it's amazing how quick it changes you... It sinks into your soul long after the person who did it would be able to remember :(

Please try and remember that you can do things, and don't let this experience knock you over completely. Be sad then try and wipe it off you, you are a grown woman and you are capable. You really are.

Your awful time today, and some of mine over the years reminds me of a tv program I watched when I was young - wasn't disabled then but it was so powerful it stuck in my head all these years... Anyone remember Quantum Leap?!

With Sam Beckett who travels through time and space into other people's bodies and has to right a wrong before he jumps again? And Al the cool future guy? Late 80s stuff

Well this one episode, it's called Jimmy, has him leaping into the body of a grown man with learning disabilities, and he has to try and get him accepted in his family before he gets put back in an institution. Sam thinks it will be a piece of cake, but it's awful... He can't fight the weight of people's prejudice. Everything he does is viewed as more evidence he's not normal, except if course it's a perfectly normal man in that body... But he can't persuade people to look past their assumptions and bias. He does in the end and it all ends happily, but one moment keeps popping back in my head , where he was playing ball outside and a woman came out and screeched at him for abusing her child, when he was just playing normally, but she couldn't see that. All she saw was an out of control lunatic :(

Weird that stuck in my mind, or maybe weird they got that insight so so right in the program!