To think if you have an assistance dog....

[MeggyMooAndTinkerToo]

That people who visit your home need to understand they cannot demand you put them in another room or outside?

I have an assistance dog (she's a hearing dog) and my constant companion. DD's boyfriends mother came to collect some hay from us tonight. She KNEW about the dog yet felt the need to comment "Oh, does it have to be in the livingroom?" "Can't you put it out?" This is the first time I've met the woman. She kept talking to DD and DH as if I wasnt there asking THEM if they could put Ruby out. DD was mortified and DH said "no I won't put Ruby out she stays with Meggy constantly, anyway ask Meggy not us." She made her excuses and then left. I feel like some sort of non existent being as she barely acknowledged me. I can honestly say I've never been in a situation like this before.

Aye, I haven't said anything even remotely approaching that.

I apologise for yet more hijacking but phobias and allergies can be classed as disabilities.

If someone has such a severe phobia of dogs that they are freaked out by one being in the same area that sounds to me like a long term negative effect on ability to do day to day activities as dogs aren't exactly easy to avoid when out and about.

I could say the same about severe allergies. Being unable to go where a dog has been for fear it could cause a life threatening allergic reaction sounds substantial in my book.

Meggy - my question about the dog being kept on a lead in restaurants etc was serious. My colleague has a guide dog and she doesn't always keep him on the lead if she goes out for lunch.

Your needs come first in your home though.

www.gov.uk/definition-of-disability-under-equality-act-2010

neitherherenorthere is correct, Hearing Dogs should be with the owner at all times. Some owners feel better able to cope than others at being away from their hearing dogs, but nothing should be expected nor asked, especially in that person's own home!

proudAS I do feel sorry for your colleague as you don't seem to fully know, despite working next to one, how an assistance dog is trained. My own HD is trained to lie down at my feet, on a blanket I provide, in a restaurant and at work. That said I do put my foot on her lead, not that she has ever wandered off, barked or whined.

Muggy, best of luck with the meal. Perhaps it might be an idea for you, your DH and your DD to talk at the table about Ruby and how she has transformed your life? It would be interesting for people who have not encountered an assistance dog and BFs mother might learn something in the process. Not least of which is that you are a person who happens to be deaf, and can definitely speak for herself.

As an aside, I'm not sure if positing a situation where a phobia would occur IF a dog was around would be able to be classed as a disability, as it is impossible to measure but could mean that for 99% of the time there was no disability therefore it could not impact on the ability to do daily activities because it does not exist in that timeframe. A one-off visitor with an assistance dog to an office where there are no dogs otherwise is not impacting on the ability to do a daily job.

Phobias can be vastly diminished in a number of ways (I used to have severe claustrophobia, now I am fine even in lifts unless they break down) but Meggy isn't suddenly going to gain hearing.

Oh, and Ruby is lovely!

I'm well aware of the equalities act by the way, seeing as I used to be an equalities officer! I've researched lots of discrimination cases around the world including the UK, including some cases where allergies/phobias came up against assistance dog owners. The AD owners always won.

Religion is also often used as a reason to refuse assistance dogs but even though both religion and disability are covered by the equalities act, in those cases I have researched, the assistance dog owners have always won their case. Religion is not accepted as a reason to refuse an AD. Indeed the Muslim Council of Great Britain for example does not condone AD refusal.

Frankie - I don't work next to this person. I know her through the disabled employees' network.

Her dog, like yours, is trained to lie on the floor under the desk. I have seen her out at lunch with the dog on the floor wearing the harness etc but not actually being held. I don't think she needs to hold him whilst she is eating as he is trained to stay put.

It would be rather difficult for your colleague to eat and hold a harness at the same time. Assistance dogs are highly trained so there is no need for this to even be considered.
Glad phobias are not a disability in law because it gives protection to people who require an assistance dog. A person with a phobia of dogs who wanted the owner of an assistance dog to hold the harness while attempting to eat in a restaurant would be highly unreasonable.

Phobias are a disability if they meet the definition under the equality act. Being terrified of dogs to the point that being near one in a public place causes a panic attack fits that description in my book.

Could you elaborate on the cases Frankie? For example did the person with the dog allergy suffer a bit of a sniffle which was easily controlled with a nasal spray or were they so severely allergic that sitting next to someone who had dog hair on their clothes could be fatal? Was the person with the phobia uncomfortable about the dog but able to overcome the issue or did they suffer a panic attack on seeing so much as a photo of one?

None of them were potential fatal allergies, it was simply sneezing issues or a dislike of dogs.

One case that comes to mind is an assistance dog owner being asked to change branches to one with a longer commute, so as not to irritate her colleague's (non fatal) allergy. She took successful legal action.

This was in the States but the reason I had to research cases around the world was to help with judgements here in the UK.

I've yet to come across or read about a 'fatal' allergy to dogs.

ProudAS if a phobia of dogs were a disability, what do you expect to happen when the two disabilities 'meet' eg in a restaurant or a workplace? Which takes precedence?

I obviously know the answer through my legal experience, but its interesting to see what people think, especially when it leads to more work for me!

Frankie - there is no exhaustive list of what constitutes a disability but this document makes it pretty clear that phobias can be included (top of page 9).
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=qf5iVYezHM2s7AbI4YLQAQ&url=www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/EqualityAct/odi_equality_act_guidance_may.pdf&ved=0CB0QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEESSbJf5NHyBOTTDCHHxvxeh4NoA&sig2=KRCKKc43L-_vkIKl3eRLQw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=qf5iVYezHM2s7AbI4YLQAQ&url=www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/EqualityAct/odi_equality_act_guidance_may.pdf&ved=0CB0QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEESSbJf5NHyBOTTDCHHxvxeh4NoA&sig2=KRCKKc43L-_vkIKl3eRLQw

As for which takes precedence there is no easy one size fits all answer. The requirement is to make reasonable adjustments for both parties and what is reasonable depends on individual circumstances. Said colleague (who works in equality role) actually discussed allergy versus assistance dog issue on a course - there was no easy answer but they had an interesting discussion about points to consider.

I'm well educated and experienced in the equalities act, thanks.

This link may also help www.assistancedogs.org.uk/faqs/

On phobias, I do believe they can be disabling as in my experience they often prevent me from doing normal day to day things, however, if I had a phobia that might impact another person, then I would consider how to manage it so that it doesn't. If that means not visiting the person, then that's how it would be, and I would arrange another way to communicate with them.

I have physical disabilities too, so I recognise how amazing assistant dogs are, amongst many other things that are there to assist people live a normal day to day life, and I do think that it's highly rude to talk as if a disabled person is not there, especially if it's regarding them. (I've been watching something recently about how deaf people can be treated by hearing people, and it makes me cringe watching them being treated as though they can't speak/understand for themselves.)

I also have difficulties with having my mental health being taken as seriously as my physical health, so I just wanted to add my piece about how we talk about it.

I am glad my phobias aren't dog related, because that is one cute puppy! How amazing it must be to have a best friend like that with you all the time! I've adopted some cats as I currently live alone and found that not only do they make me feel better in myself, they make me look after myself more because I am determined to look after them, they've brought me such a lot of joy - even if they have brought in nine worms in less than a week!

nokids - I am allergic to dogs due to asthma - I have always had to exclude myself from homes with dogs, if I was friends with the op we would always have to meet outdoors, it's just something you have to live with - I just couldn't go in to the op's house but equally she would not be able to come to my house with her dog - I can't risk asthma attacks. This is fine. A lady with a guide dog worked in a previous office but the office was huge and I was the other end, the dog did not leave her side - but I could never have worked in close proximity to her - potentially there could be such a situation where an employer would have to consider both my needs and another person with an assistance dog but it hasn't arisen yet.

Stillfrankie - if phobia if dogs were a disability and I met someone with an assistance dog I would still, as I do now, remove myself from the situation. Because obviously I can whereas they cannot.

I don't get it Frankie. You say you are educated and experienced in the equality act but you are also saying a phobia is not a disability when the link I posted makes it clear that a phobia may well constitute a disability under the EA.

if a phobia of dogs were a disability, what do you expect to happen when the two disabilities 'meet' eg in a restaurant or a workplace? Which takes precedence? Does this mean that spina bifida and cerebral palsy cannot both be disabilites as individuals with the conditions may 'meet' in a venue which can only accommodate a single wheelchair?

Disclaimer: I'm autistic and your arguments may make perfect sense by neurotypical logic which I can't make sense of.

nokids you have got a lot of stick here for no reason whatsoever.

You are not demanding any dog be put away, you would simply ask if it is a possibility.

I see nothing wrong at all with asking. People are free to say yes or no.

I am also sorry that your phobia has been belittled by someone. A phobia certainly can be a disability and is recognised as such if the criteria is met.

What's to get? I used to work in the legal sector dealing with and researching discrimination cases, including those where phobias were used as a reason to refuse entry to assistance dogs as well as reasons to discriminate in workplaces. Not once in those many cases, have phobias 'won' nor have they ever been referred to as a 'disability' because that implies its not fixable when it is.

As for spina bifida and cerebral palsy - FFS, neither person with these disabilities would have an issue with each other so in your example there wouldn't be an issue of which disability is more important, only an issue with the venue's provision.

nokids can ask all she wants. She's still being rude to ask someone to do something in their own home and could lose a friend (or several) with her rudeness.

Just in case you still think a phobia is a disability, how many points would she get on this self assessment below? Much less than me I'd imagine. (not that I claim anything)

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

YANBU but neither was she except that she didn't ask you directly. I am asthmatic and can't be near dogs at all, if somebody has a dog then I can't go to their house or I'd risk ending up in hospital. I went to a relatives house who had a dog and was ill for a week after spending an hour there.

IMO You are the one being rude Frankie.

Proud has autism but as someone who has worked in equality you seem to have a problem getting that.

As for whether a phobia is a disability you have gone and switched from discussing the EA definition to discussing PIP payments which is a different thing.

And can you blame NoKids - you are implying that her condition is magically fixable. Do you not think she would fix it if it were that simple.

Thanks Queen

And Frankie - how do you know that an individual with CP would not have an issue with SB or that someone with an allergy or phobia would automatically have a problem with an AD owner? Have you been round and asked everyone in the country with these conditions? Or maybe you can read minds like you read mine and worked out that I sit next to an AD which is constantly held by it's owner (I could have sworn that the dog was at the other side of the building and the owner specifically told me she doesn't keep constant hold of him but that must be my imagination).

We could just as easily argue that provision is inadequate if an AD user and an allergic person cannot both be accommodated.

Your experiences are interesting but that doesn't mean that the AD user should always take precedence and the first thing to do IMO is to look into ways of accommodating both. If the issue can be resolved by the dog being tied up or an allergy sufferer using a nasal spray great but what about AutumnFades - is it worth making her ill?

Proud - I'd leave the thread if I were you. Frankie is winding you up.

And Frankie - I apologise for my previous comment about you being rude. Proud has autism and deserves to be ridiculed. NoKids should wave a magic wand and fix her phobia. Autumn deserves to spend a week in hospital for being in the same place as your dog.

I think that many health problems are "fixable" but disabling, I'm incontinent and it is something that can be improved on, with operations, weight loss and medication.

Mental health problems that interfere with daily living being considered "not a problem because you COULD fix it" doesn't make sense to me. And with my PIP form I received a lot of points for my mental health issues, which are mostly anxiety/phobia based. (Communicating verbally. Engaging with other people face to face. Making budgeting decisions. At least 16 points.)