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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think you shouldn't insult someone just because they voted differently to you?

362 replies

ibitemythumbatyou · 08/05/2015 09:23

It feels like a lot of you would feel more at home in a dictatorship.

I've seen people being called stupid, selfish etc just because they decided to vote differently

I don't care who anyone voted for. I do care that we are a nation that allows everyone to vote for who they want without the threat of violence.

OP posts:
Selfishcuntydupe · 09/05/2015 12:16

But Puzzled - they would have borrowed more money, silly!

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 12:21

Puzzledandpissedoff are you aware the Tories have borrowed more money in 5 years than Labour did in 13?

peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 12:28

No, but still their policies are responsible for many thousands of people suffering and even some dying.

You mean like Labour's 'policy' regarding Iraq? I wonder how many thousands of people suffered and died because of that?

Selfishcuntydupe · 09/05/2015 12:30

Sill peed - they don't count because they are not poor , disabled or British,

No one else counts on MN, remember. No one else has validity or value or is worthy of consideration.

peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 12:32

I know it really pisses me off.

Strawberyshortcake · 09/05/2015 12:32

I only insult people when they make derogatory remarks about everyone on benefits, calling them all workshy scroungers. I'm not going to sit back and let people get away with that, it's disgusting.

FatherBiggley · 09/05/2015 12:34

Our government sanctions people and leaves them to go hungry or to despair. It does kill people. It leaves immigrants to drown and to be killed in detention centres.

peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 12:40

father- and under a Labour government absolutely EVERYONE who tried to get here and seek asylum succeeded did they, no immigrants died or were denied asylum?

Labour are not saints, nor are they our saviours. They are just another government. You do not get a 'social justice' medal for voting Labour because you think the Tories are mean.

jellybeans · 09/05/2015 12:43

All the Tory voters I know believe the rich got there through sheer hard work and that poor people are benefit scroungers who should simply 'get a job'.

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 12:56

"You mean like Labour's 'policy' regarding Iraq? I wonder how many thousands of people suffered and died because of that?"

Yes, Labour's policy on Iraq did indeed mean that thousands or people suffered and died. That's why - after a lifetime of supporting them - I did not vote for them for the first time this year. A lot of traditional Labour supporters struggled with their consciences over that one, and many did not vote for Labour because of it this time. My guess is even more did vote fro them, but with a heavy heart.

But this is a deflection. Tit for tat.

I asked a direct question - can you answer it?

I said

Tory policies are responsible for many thousands of people suffering and even some dying.

Do you accept this?

Original poster
ibitemythumbatyou · 09/05/2015 13:10

Well it seems you don't accept that wigglylines

So what are you going to do about it?

OP posts:
peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 13:30

It's commendable that you voted based on principle

Do you accept this?

I do accept that there are policies of the majority government that particular demographics of the population will perceive as causing harm. However, this is nothing new. History shows us that the very pathology of the government is to appease specific groups at the expense of others. The nature of monopolised legitimacy is itself a zero-sum game.

It would be naive to think the state a force for altruism. Only in the imagination of Utopians can there ever be a government with no suffering.

If we want to debate like adults we should agree on some premises, such as what should be defined as the common good, and what degree of discriminatory coercion is justified. In balance I conclude the current majority, and especially my local representative, to more closely follow what I perceive to be priorities, just as you have with respect to other parties.

We can chase our tails all day long, but the reality is that human behaviour means that voting against our own interests is counter-instinctive, which is why threads like these offer little but galvanisation and change no ones mind.

prettybird · 09/05/2015 13:30

YANBU.

I'm fed up reading on MN in particular that only thick, insular, uneducated, poor, not-well-off people (perm any combination of that list) vote SNP. It's one of the reasons why I mostly stopped contributing to any political threads since before the Indyref.

For the record, I voted for the tax-varying powers, fully recognising that it would probably only ever have been used upwards, so I'd have had to pay more. As a higher rate tax payer, I would also have been happy to pay more (although iirc, it was never intended to give us that degrees of customisation).

I can and am angry at Labour for fighting the Conservatives on the Tories terms. They should have challenged the "neoliberal economics" orthodoxy (what's fucking "liberal" about austerity Hmm) as the Tories are always going to win on austerity.

They should have pointed out that there are other economic models - less severe - which can deliver better results. Look at some of the IMF statements about austerity constraining growth - and what Krugman has to say.

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 13:32

"Well it seems you don't accept that wigglylines"

Sorry, I don't except what? Confused

I accept the truth of the statement "Tory policies are responsible for many thousands of people suffering and even some dying."

Do you?

What am I going to do about it? Well, for a start try to get those who voted for them to understand what they're supporting. I don't think all Tory voters are selfish arseholes. Many are kind compassionate people (e.g. my cousin) who would be horrified if they understood what they were actually supporting.

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 13:36

peedoffblue yes yes a lot of words.

But the bottom line is if you take away people's means of support - e.g. through sanctions - they will suffer. Some will die.

If you force disabled people to undertake activities which make their health conditions worse they will suffer - some will die.

That's not hard to understand surely? It's not about appeasing one group at the expense of another. It's a line of basic humanity which has been crossed.

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 13:42

"voting against our own interests is counter-instinctive"

See the thing is, voting Tory is against everyone's interests except the very. very wealthy. If you are not super rich, you have voted against your own interests IMO, it's just that you can't see it!

You may get to pass your million pound house onto your child, but if this lot have their way, our children's quality of life in this society will be worse.

Worse employment rights and human rights, a crippled health service, poorer food standards, more poverty, more crime, more ill-health in society caused by poverty-related diseases and poor education, less justice (removal of legal aid) I could go on.

Original poster
ibitemythumbatyou · 09/05/2015 13:51

So just out of interest all the poor and disabled people that voted Labour because it was better for them would they not also fall under the category of being selfish?

Seeing how every single person who voted Conservatives are selfish.

OP posts:
peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 13:57

yes yes a lot of words. Yes did you understand them all? Seems not by your response.

My point was that every decision a government makes, some will suffer and some will benefit.
You are asking me to verify something that we all already know to be true- if you take something away from people, of course you will make people unhappy. I don't get why getting me to 'accept it' is so important to you, as you don't know which way I voted.
I put it to you that if the Conservative government is to be blamed for taking things away, can we not blame New Labour for creating the dependency?

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 13:57

No, they wouldn't.

One person votes for their own (perceived) financial gain, at the expense of thousands of other people suffering and dying.

Another person votes to save themselves and their family from being at direct risk of starving and being made homeless.

The two scenarios are worlds apart, can you see that?

wigglylines · 09/05/2015 14:02

"My point was that every decision a government makes, some will suffer and some will benefit."

Yes that is true. But what you are missing out is that the scale of that suffering / benefit can vary hugely.

It is NOT true to say whoever got in, roughly the same amount of suffering would happen.

Under this government's cuts there will be much, much more suffering than there would be under a government with more progressive, left-leaning politics. And many people will die or be pushed into abject poverty who would not have done otherwise.

Original poster
ibitemythumbatyou · 09/05/2015 14:05

No of course they wouldn't.

Everyone who didn't vote Tory is a saint as well.

I voted Green so I guess that makes me a saint too.

OP posts:
wigglylines · 09/05/2015 14:05

"You are asking me to verify something that we all already know to be true- if you take something away from people, of course you will make people unhappy."

No, I am not asking you to accept that sanctions will make people unhappy.

I quite clearly asked you to accept that sanctions cause suffering and death.

Can you do it? It seems not so far ...

peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 14:05

Worse employment rights and human rights, a crippled health service, poorer food standards, more poverty, more crime, more ill-health in society caused by poverty-related diseases and poor education, less justice (removal of legal aid) I could go on.

Ok now you are just falling into the trap of generalisations.

you have voted against your own interests IMO, it's just that you can't see it!

And that is your opinion.

our children's quality of life in this society will be worse.

Again- Your opinion, that is not a fact for every single child in society. There are people on this thread that disagree with you on that. You are acting like you are trying to educate people who only vote Tory because they simply don't know what they are voting for. You are wasting your time, because they see the world differently to you. Your incentives, however noble you think they are, are not the same as the incentives of others. You should stop trying to re- educate Conservative voters and blaming them for putting this government in, and go and help out at you local food bank.

peedoffblue · 09/05/2015 14:08

I quite clearly asked you to accept that sanctions cause suffering and death.

If you want to use those semantics- then sure.

It is NOT true to say whoever got in, roughly the same amount of suffering would happen.

I never said anything like that.

Selfishcuntydupe · 09/05/2015 14:08

Your incentives, however noble you think they are, are not the same as the incentives of others. You should stop trying to re- educate Conservative voters and blaming them for putting this government in, and go and help out at you local food bank.

Amen to that.