I have taken everything from DDs room.

[DrivenRoundTheBend]

She is almost 4. She has always been a lovely, loving affectionate little girl and although she still is it's coupled with a horrible temper, screaming, cheeky, rude and terrible attitude at the moment and has been like this for about 3 months. Alongside this she is acting like a bit of a spoilt brat. I hate saying that about her but it's honestly true.

Her attitude if she breaks something is "well you can just buy a new one", if I take 1 or 2 toys from her from being naughty the response is consistent with "well, I'll get it back once I'm being good and in the meantime I can just play with X, Y, Z. She will say things to me and ask if I'm upset and when I've responded no she will move onto something else to try and push my buttons.

I feel like I've tried everything. No screen time, stopping a special trip or day out, time-out, a sticker chart, praising good behaviour at every opportunity, taking away toys etc etc the list is endless but it makes no difference.

Tonight I lost it, I shouted and I mean really shouted I cried. I explained to her it feel like she doesn't love me and how sad this makes me because I love her so much (this seemed to hit a nerve as she got slightly upset and said she does love me and doesn't like to see me cry). I've taken almost every single toy out of her room so there is nothing but some books and her bed and table and a couple of teddies to cuddle in bed (not her favourites they are along with everything else in my room)

I'm devastated. I feel like I've done something really wrong for her to be acting out this badly and I just don't know what it is I've done. I feel like a terrible Mum. My parents have spoken to her but also told me they don't want me to take her to their house for Sunday dinner for example if she's going to be as cheeky as she is to me as it's stressful for them.

I don't know what to do and I don't know where to turn. If this doesn't work I feel like I'll have hit a brick wall. Whenever I speak to people in RL I'm told it's a phase, it's her age, she'll grow out of it but all I can see is it getting progressively worse and I feel completely lost.

You said what you said in the heat of the moment but the fact that you said it means that on some level you do genuinely feel that if she behaves badly it's because she doesn't love you. She does love you, I guarantee it 100%. You are the most important person in her life. You control her world. Her behaviour is a reflection of her age and development, not of you as a parent or of her feelings for you.
Ease off. Have some fun with her. She won't be 4 forever. Things will get better.

I've stuck with everything, the sticker chart is ongoing but when all the stickers have been removed I resort to the toys.

Don't take the stickers away. Stickers should be permanent, you are telling her that it doesn't matter whether she is good or bad because nothing is permanent.

If you had completed a project at work you would expect to be paid for it. If the next week you didn't complete a different project quite as well you would not expect your payment for previous good work to be taken back.

If you have a driving licence for three years and then get a speeding ticket your previous 3 years driving isn't questioned.

As adults we expect rewards to be given/earned and not taken away later, it should be the same for a child.

And when she is being a little madam you can both look at the sticker chart and see how often she isn't badly behaved.

Do you have set things she can get stickers for? Things that even on a bad day she can earn a sticker?

I agree with cailin

OP

Hard as it is, those "feeling shit" feeling are useful. They are a sign something needs to change. I did a couple of things when mine were little I feel ashamed of - I was at the end of my tether. But that was never my DS's fault.

It will all come out in the wash. Mine are 14 and 12 now, and all the fears I had are unfounded. They are great kids, with great self-control, and we have a good open relationship.

That aha site is really good. Just had a look.

Blimey, a whole cohort of pearl clutchers arrived after I went to bed. "Were you brought up to doubt your unlovability OP?" [snort].

The discipline threads often result in some of my favourite Mumsnet bonkersness. The most memorable was a poster who claimed that she had never disciplined her children and (get this), they had never misbehaved .

Some people do have a rich fantasy life.

Hi I haven't read the whole thread but have read all the OP's posts.

Sorry if this has already been recommended but I like the book
"How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk"

I hope you have a better day today OP

These threads always bring out the gratuitously vindictive posters and you just have to ignore them. There is good advice in the more positive posts.

My dd was a very difficult child. Impulsive. Hot tempered. Manipulative. Had screaming raging tantrums. Threw things. Cut her hair, scribbled on walls, put herself in danger. It was hard and it lasted a long time. The best way of dealing with it was to remain as neutral as possible - children like this want attention and they know how to push your buttons. We used to spend a lot of time telling dd that she was welcome to behave how she wanted in the privacy of her bedroom but she wasn't welcome to inflict it on the rest of the family. Withdrawal of attention was absolutely the most effective thing we did but you need to do it quickly - immediately after the infraction - and stop giving second chances. Set limits, and apply them.

Does your dd behave in other settings? My dd could be difficult with relatives she knew well, but she was never disruptive at school although she would occasionally test limits with new teachers, just to check out where the limits were! So obviously the problem was partly a parenting one. With this type of child you really need to take the emotion out of handling the tantrums, which is much easier for an unrelated adult like a teacher, and harder for a parent. In my experience kids like this are often very bright and have a lot of "social intelligence" which means that they learn very early exactly how to push your buttons!

If it's any consolation dd is now a really delightful teenager ;) (it probably sounds like a long time to wait from your perspective)

PS I've snapped at DD and I'm a fairly cool, laid back person. She is just a natural psychologist who knows exactly how to get the reaction she wants! Guilt is poisonous in parenting - we all screw up but we can avoid making it worse by learning from mistakes rather than agonising over them.

Good morning op [sunshine emoticon].
You have my sympathy dd1 is 5 and was really challenging between 3-5. I shouted more than I would have liked, got disappointed with myself and thought she had ADHD because she as so relentless.

She is in yr now and has changed so much. She is sensible, most of the time, and a beautiful sister to her volatile 2 yr old sibling.
What I feel has helped me get through is

• MN
• definitely clear and consistent boundaries, reinforced by sing Fromm the same hymn sheet as dh.

-- a tiny bit of love bombing as appropriate, with some empathetic bits from playful parenting thrown in. However, I have found that clear boundaries with age appropriate ( so not devastating) consequences are the most important thing, as your child doesn't yet know how to contai herself. It is a massively important life skill, teach her reasonable boundaries vonsitantly but expect mistakes ( as I'm sure you do)

Lots of fun activities, and enough sleep!!!

Also for us a good multivitamin and fish oil help. Fish oil is supposed to help the development of the brain, not very scientific but I believe it's good and healthy.

This will pass op, and well done for posting, I know how horrible one can feel when struggling with dc's behaviour, for me there is no greater stress.

Good luck op.

Apologies for the gran comment. In my defence I was getting tired and misread it. :)

Still, if you are around, I still think that your mother doing the talking to her gives confusing signals. While as a wider family we deal with the children as needed, if the parent is there and on the case, then it's up to the parent.

I'd say that DS has been a child that has been easy to deal with, but he has also had difficult times, particularly when transitioning phases. It's a hard time for both sides. Him testing his and my limits, dealing with new capabilities (including free choice, more autonomy and so on) and me trying to figure out how to respond in the best way. As other parents, I have reached the phase of "what the hell is happening to my son and what am I doing", but we have always ended up finding a new equilibrium that works.

But, in my experience, it does take trial and error, taking a step back (even during the tantrums) to try and understand what is going on and how best to respond. Time out is a good opportunity to do this, and we usually get to talk nicely about whatever caused it (or the bad behaviour) and apologise after it.

You'll get through it. :)

There is a woman called Janet Lansbury who writes about these exact issues, why they happen and what to do. Basically, according to her, your DD is asking you for clearer boundaries because she is confused. There's a book called 'No bad kids - toddler discipline without shame', and a website. These two blog posts seem pretty relevant to what you're going through:

www.janetlansbury.com/2011/06/how-to-be-the-gentle-leader-your-child-needs/

www.janetlansbury.com/2013/10/the-real-reasons-toddlers-push-limits/

She writes in a way that helps you to realise that toddlers' behaviour should not be taken personally. Of course your DD loves you! Admittedly, my own DD is only 6 months, so I have not tried her methods yet, but it is not just about methods, it's a philosophy that helps you to view things differently and will hopefully make you feel much better.

If we love another person and do everything we can for them, it is natural to be hurt when they don't treat us well. The logical part of our brain tells us that they are wrong for their behaviour. However, if the 'other person' is your child,then your brain tells you that somehow this ' is your fault'.

It does not help that hundreds of other children are behaving in the same way. You are not parenting them, you are parenting your daughter.

Small children constantly move the goal posts. A reward or punishment that works sometimes, does not work at others, food once enjoyed is suddenly refused. That is why most normal parents adjust their own behaviour as they go along.

You very sensibly are trying to get your daughter to behave well and to show her how much she is loved. You come on here for practical tips and have received some good advice, but some very cruel and unneccary comments.

I hope you can take away the good bits and ignore the hurtful ones.

Gosh some people love to put the boot in without offering any help don't they?!

Op, I hope you are feeling much brighter today. The difficulty when posting when you're having a problem is that some posters focus solely on that without considering the rest of the background.

I have no doubt you love each other, absolutely every parent has days like this, and if they say they don't they are lying. The fact you are posting and asking for support and ideas show you care very deeply.

As I said mine are older so it's a bit of a blur but I remember going to bed in tears some nights at the preschool stage. My only advice is don't stress yourself even more by worrying about living up to some perfect parenting ideal (like some posters here insinuate).

No child comes with an instruction manual and they are all different so we just have to do our best. This will pass, there has been lots of good advice which I hope helps. The early years can be very hard. I won't mention teenage problems on here as you will lose heart totally

I bought Janet Lansbury's book last week, after a particularly difficult few days with DD. Her writing, and RIE philosophy in general, is really helpful. It's helped me to remember that as a parent, a lot of my job is to sit back, and relax. It's a relatively short book, mercifully, not full of repetition unlike most . I would recommend. Elevating Child Care.

I love Jabet Lansbury too.

OP, the reason I have that "3 year old behaviour challenges" to hand is because I went through something similar with my usually-very-easy child when she hit 3.5. So did my friends. It's completely standard.

I'd you think 3.5 is hard work, wait till she hits 4.5!

Gentle parent the hell out of this and don't be afraid to tell her when you're wrong.

It's potentially damaging to make a child believe that they are responsible for your happiness, and that they have to earn your love by conforming to what you want. Parenting in such a way is likely to lead to issues on your relationship when she's older

This thing is disappointed, while your child may not be responsible for your happiness, their bad behaviour can certainly make you unhappy, and I am yet to be convinced that letting them see that (in an appropriate way), is in any way harmful.

OP snapped, her daughter now knows that she can only push mummy so far. That's not the end of the world, and could be considered a good thing.

Yeah, admit when you're wrong, but your kids don't want mea culpa's and you shouldn't undermine your own authority. I don't think removing toys was wrong at all. probably what Op regrets, and what I have regretted in these situations is that it was done in anger.

However it's done now and was an appropriate response. The way to move forwards is to let her daughter make amends by earning them back.

I'm feeling a lot better this morning. DD is her normal chirpy wee self as she always is in the mornings. She had her first dry night last night, up to the toilet twice but no accidents, another few days and we'll maybe be able to ditch the pull ups.

She came through for a cuddle in my bed around 07.30 this morning so I've asked her if she wants to go to nursery or stay with me as I'm off work and she has asked to go to nursery for a little while and for me to collect her after lunchtime.

She said sorry for last night, I've said I'm sorry for shouting. I'm steering clear of apologising about the toys. She asked when she'll get them back and I've proposed that we put some back in her room this morning as I am really happy she said sorry. We've "agreed" she earns the rest of them back and that we're putting some away for a little while also.

With regards to the comment I made. I don't feel like she doesn't love me. I know that she does. It was said on impulse last night. To shock her? Possibly, I'm not even sure myself. I'm going to try not to dwell on it.

I've taken on board everything said, I've already looked at some of the websites mentioned and will look further. I'll also have look at some books.

Time out doesn't work for us so it's now stopping. The sticker chart will not have stars deducted for naughty behaviour it will simply be a "reward" chart which I guess is the whole point of it. One thing that has stuck out especially is changing the way I speak. So instead of "if you don't do x you won't get to x" to "if you do x we could maybe do x". It simple but turns and everyday phrase into a positive instead of a negative.

I think I'm definitely guilty of getting myself into a bit of a negative mind frame about everything going on and I've realised that in order for DDs attitude to change I need to have a look at my own to.

The previous poster who said that my Mum should not discipline. I actually disagree on this. My parents are a huge part of our lives. It is completely unrealistic for them not to tell her off or put a consequence in place. I am going to go through with them what is appropriate discipline going forward so that it is consistent and I'm going to speak to her nursery when I'm there on Monday for her review.

To answer a question a few posters have asked. She doesn't have these issues at nursery. She plays up to me alot. And to a lesser extent my parents and her other Gran. I realise the changes need to come from home and I feel like I'm starting today with a clearer head and a more positive outlook.

I'm not failing, we will get through it, we will have moments but hopefully to a lesser extreme. I will say that it's very hard being a lone parent even with the support network. There is nobody I can hand over to when it get's a bit much. There is nobody there to step in or back me up. Sometimes it feels like a battle of wills but I need to readdress that I am the parent and she is the child and I think I'm sometimes guilty of thinking she is more emotionally sophisticated than she actually is.

She has been a delight this morning (actually more so than normal), and whilst we're going to have ups and downs over the next wee while I really am hoping that this can be the start of a new page and we can both get back to enjoying each other completely again.

Thanks again for all your help and advice. It really does mean the world. I won't let a few posters put me off. I do feel guilty but I'm not going to dwell, some good has come of it because without it I wouldn't be feeling positive, which I am.

Hurrah! go for it. Brilliant post.

So she is 3 not four....
I had a very tantrum prone little girl. You sound like a great mum but I can share some of my coping strategies from 30+ years ago.
Meal times I always served something she usually liked but if she refused my response was always bread/cheese/Apple take it or go hungry. The words 'there's bread there's cheese' are still chanted at the dgc by their parents.
Tantrums I ignored quite literally by standing up and turning my back on her I usually had a book to hand so would read (pretend) while she shouted and kicked. Whenever there was a break I would say,"are you ready to play/go out/get dressed now?"
If the tantrum resumed I would repeat.
If she said she hated me I just told her I loved her. I never removed toys or anything and never sent her to her room as punishment. I wanted her room to be literally a 'time out' where she could go when things got too much and she felt frustrated.
I introduced a 'punch it pillow' which was a giant floor cushion which she could use if she needed to be physically aggressive. She pummelled it and cried on it and came to love it. Punchy now lives in her adult bedroom with a posh new cover and is occasionally used by her two boys.
Keep on keeping on love all will be well.

Its amazing what a difference some sleep can make!

Just remembered most children are naughtiest with the people they feel safest with - so being an angel at school and a handful at home is normal (and much to be prefered to the opposite, which I have had).

Just read your update, that is perfect exactly right.

YNK - what a ridiculous thing to say.

Seriously, are there some people that would not be angry if they're nearly four year old tipped a bowl of soup into their lap. Sure OP overreacted but she has admitted that, that's why she's here asking for help.

We all lose our cool sometimes, I think that's when you know you've got the right child - when they know exactly how to push your buttons.

Good luck op.

Brilliant update OP, you sound so positive. I think from the sounds of things you're doing a fantastic job already and the changes you're talking about sound spot on.

Great post, OP.

Glad things are looking brighter and that you have a positive plan.

Also really glad she chose nursery then you later. A great sign that she's confident.

for you now then!