I have taken everything from DDs room.

[DrivenRoundTheBend]

She is almost 4. She has always been a lovely, loving affectionate little girl and although she still is it's coupled with a horrible temper, screaming, cheeky, rude and terrible attitude at the moment and has been like this for about 3 months. Alongside this she is acting like a bit of a spoilt brat. I hate saying that about her but it's honestly true.

Her attitude if she breaks something is "well you can just buy a new one", if I take 1 or 2 toys from her from being naughty the response is consistent with "well, I'll get it back once I'm being good and in the meantime I can just play with X, Y, Z. She will say things to me and ask if I'm upset and when I've responded no she will move onto something else to try and push my buttons.

I feel like I've tried everything. No screen time, stopping a special trip or day out, time-out, a sticker chart, praising good behaviour at every opportunity, taking away toys etc etc the list is endless but it makes no difference.

Tonight I lost it, I shouted and I mean really shouted I cried. I explained to her it feel like she doesn't love me and how sad this makes me because I love her so much (this seemed to hit a nerve as she got slightly upset and said she does love me and doesn't like to see me cry). I've taken almost every single toy out of her room so there is nothing but some books and her bed and table and a couple of teddies to cuddle in bed (not her favourites they are along with everything else in my room)

I'm devastated. I feel like I've done something really wrong for her to be acting out this badly and I just don't know what it is I've done. I feel like a terrible Mum. My parents have spoken to her but also told me they don't want me to take her to their house for Sunday dinner for example if she's going to be as cheeky as she is to me as it's stressful for them.

I don't know what to do and I don't know where to turn. If this doesn't work I feel like I'll have hit a brick wall. Whenever I speak to people in RL I'm told it's a phase, it's her age, she'll grow out of it but all I can see is it getting progressively worse and I feel completely lost.

I agree with the cuddlers too.
Sometimes children need a get out and a way to turn a situation around,and can't see it.
Like us shouting at them,they can be even more impulsive,and sometimes a cuddle and a 'I love you but I don't like the way you're treating me,because it makes me sad' can be effective with certain little souls at 4.It gives them the chance to move on from the outburst.

I don't think she'll learn to behave because you have taken everything out of her room, but she might play better with fewer toys available.

Are you in Scotland OP?

Like others I was wondering if she goes to preschool?

So school is sept 2016?

I would get her into regular structured early years before then if she's not already.

My dc's definitely showed when they were ready to bite off a bit more in the way of structure.

Bogey has given good advice.
My DGC can be little horrors and push and push boundaries.

Don't beat yourself up.

Are you with her 24 hours a day? Is she in preschool, is her dad about?

Your parents don't seem very supportive. I wonder do you have anyone to support you? I remember one of my DCs being like this, I actually filming him to show it to someone to see if it was me...he was awful.

I think it's very hard if you don't have any supoort or back up to help.

My eldest, just turned 8, is pretty challenging and has been a lot like your daughter at times so I really sympathise.

It's difficult. More than one other person has commented that my daughter is always testing the boundaries, no matter how clear they might seem to be. But she has got better as she's got older, if that's any consolation, and I've got better at handling things - by being consistent, trying to keep calm (I do not always manage this) because getting angry just feeds the drama, and most importantly by trying to avoid unnecessary confrontation in the first place by keeping things light and getting her on side rather than expecting her to automatically Do As She's Told (which is what I always did as a small child, without question, which is why I have found her so challenging at times - I just don't get it!)

When she was in the middle of a tantrum things like sanctions just make it worse: if I'd take a toy, she would throw the rest out of her room; if I said she couldn't go to a birthday party, she'd say she didn't want to go anyway. And then not change her mind even when calm. What do you do with that? I've had to sit with my back against her bedroom door on many occasions after I've sent her (or carried her) to her room for some misdemeanour, with her repeatedly hurling herself against the other side of it. Time out was a joke - she'd just keep getting up regardless of how much time that she'd have to spend being returned to her chair. Generally the more stern my approach, the more she would fight it, and the more miserable we'd all be.

I can't claim I've never cried in front of her - because I have, on at least two dreadful occasions, but I do agree that it's obviously best not to get into deep emotional talks with your daughter. It doesn't mean the same things to her as to you, and whilst she might seem chastened now I guarantee it won't do anything to prevent any future incidents. But you know that probably. I just wanted to say I've been there, really, and wish you luck - I'm sure it will pass. Anyone trying to claim here that they've never put a parenting foot wrong is talking crap.

I'm really sorry OP but she's four years old. That's what they do - act out, push boundaries, test your patience. That's her job, she's a kid

And the OPs job as a parent is to put a stop to it. Which she is taking steps to do.

If you are not going to start teaching her manners at 4, well what age would you suggest she leave it to?

The problem is OP, if she doesn't behave then where do you go from here? She's 4, she's going to struggle to grasp the concept of being good to earn things back because all she will be able to focus on is the upset she feels at all her stuff being taken away and you having said that it feels like she doesn't love you! If she is feeling hurt and confused and a bit unstable because what you've done here is not something she could predict so she's likely feeling a bit "oh no, what might mummy do next" she's actually likely to act out MORE not less. Kids, especially at this young age, need really secure boundaries and a discipline system that is consistent and known. She will test it, on a regular basis, because she's a kid, and that's how she learns how to behave, but the consistency will be reassuring and her behaviour will improve with time.

Don't do time outs and sticker charts and this and that and take away her stuff and have big long talks about behaviour etc. it's too much, she will feel tense and just be getting negativity and pressure from you, which will cause more acting out.

I have a 4yo DD who can be awful. When she's having a bad patch I tend to go back to basics. Go in at bedtime and say "DD im sorry if it's seemed like mummy's being cross all the time lately. Shall we start again tomorrow" and Ill give her a cuddle. I think the key thing is to accept that they are going to be naughty, you aren't going to get a child sailing through from 3-teenage with only one naughty thing a year, they act up, quite a lot of the time. It's normal. If you ask say a seven year old why they did x naughty thing, often they look quite sheepish and say "I don't really know" or "I felt cross but I know it was wrong" and a 4yos thoughts behind naughty behaviour aren't much different.

It's about having known boundaries and reinforcing them each time they are tested. With mine it'd be "DD we DO NOT do x" or "don't you dare do that again" or "no hitting DD. Do it again and you will be going upstairs to your room until you can behave nicely". Most of the time that reinforces the boundary, they say sorry, it's over and done with. If they do it again, then they know the consequence, it's stairs or their room until they can apologise and come back and behave nicely. I will send them back over and over if I have to, through mealtimes if necessary. This works with mine because of the sort of kids they are, a sticker chart may work better with other kids etc.

I think what you are describing is pretty standard 4yo behaviour tbh and I think you are being far too heavy handed. I also think your expectations are off if you think she should just be prefectly behaved all the time. With the soup I'd have done death stare and scary low toned voice "how dare you throw your soup. Get upstairs right now" and DD would have scuttled off upstairs, possibly shouting "fine then" (threenager attitude still lingers) Few mins later she would get upset though and come back down and apologise. She'd probably want to clear it up as well as I've always used a bit of natural consequence parenting with them.

Back right off. Put the stuff back and start again tomorrow. Try not to be too hard on her. She's a normal 4yo trying to push your buttons, don't make this about your love for her or hers for you.

What Shadows said^

She has preschool 5 afternoons a week for 3hours and she is in private nursery a Tuesday, Wednesday before and after preschool and Thursday before preschool.

I think I'd like your class duplodon

Shadows. I've specifically said I do not expect perfect behaviour.

I thought Shadows post was very useful and they'd obviously taken some time and thought to write that out.

Have you had any advice from this that you consider helpful?

That's quite a lot of time away from you. Is it because you work? In thinking the playing up is an attention thing. If she's feeling that she misses spending more time with you, and she knows bad behaviour gets your full attention then she's going to keep doing it. I would try a complete change of tact. Even if she's being foul take her out somewhere really special and spend the whole time praising her, talking about how much you love spending time with her etc. Try to drive home the message that the time she DOES get with you, she can have your full attention but in good ways; that it's not just misbehaviour that gets your attention, and that you do actually like having fun with her. I think it's also really important to stress that you don't like her behaviour sometimes but you do like her .... That she isn't "naughty" but that her behaviour sometimes is. Little kids can really struggle to separate those ideas and so can feel that they are "bad" and almost play up to it. I also agree with the cuddles idea upthread to give her an out when she's digging her heels in more and more.

Suffragette has sound advice about positive framing.

I haven't noticed anyone mention that your sanctions of removing a previously-offered treat just can't work. A not-yet-4yo doesn't have a solid enough understanding of time (future/past and remoteness, eg five minutes v five hours). They are not capable of deferring gratification - a skill that comes from age five onwards if you're lucky.

Don't spend all day promising you'll go swimming, then rescind it for bad behaviour - as far as she's concerned you're moving the goal posts and being inconsistent. Pps talked upthread about pushing to find the boundaries, and I agree wholeheartedly. She is getting mixed messages about her day/week/world from you and she's exploring where the edges are.

So say "If you sit nicely at lunch time and use your manners to say please and thank-you then we will be able to go swimming. Wouldn't that be fun! Oh, now how do we ask politely to have bread cut up? Well done."

Active listening is wanky but seems to work. Parrot back to them what they've said, so they know you're listening, before you say no. "You want teddy back. Well yes, because he's your favourite. But he can't sit on your bed when you're shouting, so let's try being calm so he can come back for a quick cuddle." "You want soup for tea. Soup is lovely! I've made cabbage fritters tonight but I'll put soup on the shopping list."

Good luck. It's a hard age.

What can I do when she doesn't care about any punishment that is given?

I think keep doing it. She may display some bravado and not appear to care about the punishment, but I would not take much notice of that. If you decide that throwing soup means that she will tidy up and then she will have a long spell in the thinking chair until she is ready to apologise, she may not seem too bothered but she will tire of the repetition eventually.

Thank you for the responses. I really do appreciate them.

If I'm honest I'm reluctant to just put everything back. If making a second dinner is giving off the wrong signals would that not be the exact same?

The reason for the second dinner was because I batch cook and freeze. I had marked a pot wrong and gave her a slightly spicier version, my mistake. It wasn't her fault that she didn't like it, it was my mislabeling so I wasn't going to refuse dinner on those grounds.

What I said to her wasn't emotional blackmail, it wasn't engineered to hurt her/confuse her. It was said in the heat (literally with soup on my lap) moment. I'm not proud of it and I appreciate all the suggestions and other experiences. I just don't know what to do when nothing seems to have an impact? I have in the past tried to give her a cuddle but if she's still upset she lashes out. I've learned that she needs her space.

I'm not perfect, I do not expect her to be perfect. Not in any way shape or form. I don't blame her, I don't dislike my child I love her but I'm struggling with it all right now. I don't think she is deliberately trying to hurt me but I do know she is testing her boundaries and mine. I know it's normal, it doesn't make it easier.

My parents are great, they are supportive and they are very much a positive part of mine and my daughter life but sometimes they just don't want to deal with the tantrums. It sometimes makes it harder for me as I am a lone parent but they shouldn't have to deal with the things that I as a parent am struggling to deal with myself.

I just wanted some advice and I really appreciate all that's been written even if some of it hasn't been the nicest reading.

I think your boundaries need tightening up - if you make dinner and she doesn't want it, she gets the alternative. She got her soup then wanted bread, which she got but made you run around even more by wanting it cut up. She's got you dancing to her tune and to some degree she's in charge, not you.

I know how hard it is (my youngest was similar at that age!) but tighten those boundaries. "This is your dinner, eat it or there's nothing until breakfast." She's old enough for just one warning but also try positive parenting - if you help me tidy the toys really quickly we'll have time for an extra bedtime story. If you eat up nicely and help me clear this table we can have a cuddle on the sofa whilst we watch .

Be strong, be consistent and don't be too hard on yourself. We've all said things we may regret, think of the long term plan and plough on through.

Whats the feedback from her childcare, do they have any concerns over her behaviour?

It's so easy isn't it, to get stuck in a negative cycle when they have a period of acting out. You've had quite a lot of good advice, I'm sure some will be more relevant and it would be interesting to know if it's just you she acts out for as this is quite important.

X-posts. Yes Driven you have said that, but I think your actions, in taking all the stuff away etc do suggest that you expect a higher standard of behaviour than is perhaps achievable for a 4yo. It's the kind of discipline that we see on the teenager threads, advocated for really aggressive teens who are defiant to the point of becoming aggressive and even then it's hotly debated as to whether it works or not, whether it's cruel or not etc. I just don't think a 4yos understanding of their own emotions, the expectations of them, the boundaries in place and their sense of right and wrong is good enough for it to be effective. Her getting upset and promising to try and be good to earn stuff back will be her parroting what you said in telling her off, and her picking up from your body language etc that you are very cross and that she needs to "say something" to make it better. She won't carry that through to actions or moderating her behaviour though because the depth of understanding isn't there. She just wanted you to stop being cross so said what she thought would achieve that. Staying calm and concise "you do NOT throw soup DD" is something she can understand and being sent to her room/timeout would give her the chance to let that message sink in fully.

Oops cross posted re dinner!

Good luck.

Timing, Tone of voice and Body language (including facial expression) are key in communicating.

Catch her being good and invite her to come and get a cuddle. She will respond to your non verbal cues.
What do your non verbal signals tell her? Her behaviour will give you your answers.

I agree with Don't do time outs and sticker charts and this and that and take away her stuff and have big long talks about behaviour etc. it's too much, she will feel tense and just be getting negativity and pressure from you, which will cause more acting out. wholeheartedly.

I would add that while at 4 she can't understand "it feels like you don't love me", she certainly can understand "we are careful with our things, so that we can play with them again and again".

Check out ahaparenting.com (I'm a stuck record about this website but it's great) and RIE (resources for infant educators) philosophies.

Yes, work to keep your tone light at all times. With 2 year old DD I've pinpointed that when my tone changes to cross, she shuts down and is unable to do whatever it is I want her to do. Which is a fine pickle to be in. I've been trying to keep my voice up and light and conversational even when I want to bang my head off the wall and it is helping enormously.