I have taken everything from DDs room.

[DrivenRoundTheBend]

She is almost 4. She has always been a lovely, loving affectionate little girl and although she still is it's coupled with a horrible temper, screaming, cheeky, rude and terrible attitude at the moment and has been like this for about 3 months. Alongside this she is acting like a bit of a spoilt brat. I hate saying that about her but it's honestly true.

Her attitude if she breaks something is "well you can just buy a new one", if I take 1 or 2 toys from her from being naughty the response is consistent with "well, I'll get it back once I'm being good and in the meantime I can just play with X, Y, Z. She will say things to me and ask if I'm upset and when I've responded no she will move onto something else to try and push my buttons.

I feel like I've tried everything. No screen time, stopping a special trip or day out, time-out, a sticker chart, praising good behaviour at every opportunity, taking away toys etc etc the list is endless but it makes no difference.

Tonight I lost it, I shouted and I mean really shouted I cried. I explained to her it feel like she doesn't love me and how sad this makes me because I love her so much (this seemed to hit a nerve as she got slightly upset and said she does love me and doesn't like to see me cry). I've taken almost every single toy out of her room so there is nothing but some books and her bed and table and a couple of teddies to cuddle in bed (not her favourites they are along with everything else in my room)

I'm devastated. I feel like I've done something really wrong for her to be acting out this badly and I just don't know what it is I've done. I feel like a terrible Mum. My parents have spoken to her but also told me they don't want me to take her to their house for Sunday dinner for example if she's going to be as cheeky as she is to me as it's stressful for them.

I don't know what to do and I don't know where to turn. If this doesn't work I feel like I'll have hit a brick wall. Whenever I speak to people in RL I'm told it's a phase, it's her age, she'll grow out of it but all I can see is it getting progressively worse and I feel completely lost.

Nothing really happened, I made her dinner and she didn't want it and asked for soup.

Why did you make her a different meal? Presumably you didn't make a dinner she can't eat?

I don't tend to react other than to give her a warning, then a second warning and then a sticker/toy is removed.

Why do you give two warnings? Do you not find that that encourages defiance?

Are you consistent with her?

We have always used time out as discipline and found it worked well, but you have to be consistent. So as soon as she starts to misbehave say "dd that is naughty/not acceptable. Please stop that now. If you do not you will be getting time out". Then if they do it again give time out.

Obviously though as the others have said she is 4 and some of the behaviour is just age related.

Anything changed in the last 3 months?

We removed all things superhero from my DS due to him copying behaviour he didn't quite understand yet - he earnt them back through improved behaviour with certain bans remaining in place until older (like watching superheroes on tv). He was nearing his 4th birthday at the time. We did this alongside sticker charts etc to praise the good.

I hope this works out for you OP - if her behaviour is adversely affecting your lives you need to take drastic action. Throwing soup at you is not acceptable & it might just be the wake up call that she needs.

What hamiltoes said....

She won't shrivel up and die because you've taken her toys, but she might not be able to sleep without her favourite soft toy, so once you've both calmed down I would give what she needs to sleep back before bed.

She's found out how far she can push you, and to be honest, I would have shouted if I'd had a bowl of soup thrown at me.

Bedtime wasn't stressful, we had a story and a cuddle. I also explained to her before bed that she will get some toys back every day providing she behaves.

I'm not stupid, I don't expect perfect behaviour. Not even close. But I do expect not to have a bowl of soup thrown in my direction.

That does sound really tough OP. You mention using several methods at once - is there a reason for that? I think kids respond best to one thing being used consistently - so pick either time out, a reward chart or whatever, and keep it going. It will be tough at first but she will respond eventually. Just expect it to get worse before it gets better.

Have you heard of Triple P? I work in a school and run courses, in order to run the courses I had to go through one and mad as it sounds (because we are a very "normal" sort of family; happy kids, no real behavioural issues aside from a bit of cheekiness) it helped enormously.

Picking up on everything good and really, truly praising good behaviour isn't as easy as it sounds, and I'm dreadfully sarcastic so my compliments would be along the lines of "well done for playing nicely with your brother...for once" so always with an undercurrent of negativity. Since sitting the course I'm much more attuned to praising for good stuff, and the DC's have reacted by being much better behaved. They still have testing moments (and DS1 has Aspergers, so it took some practise before he got the hang of it) but honestly, look into it. Worked wonders.

Also, much as it's awful to admit, 4 year olds really can be bellends. Throwing the bowl of soup deserved a consequence; she has one. Don't beat yourself up over it. I have a list as long as my arm of stupid stuff my boys have done as pre-schoolers (including painting a dog, not ours, pritt-sticking an entire chair, pushing blobs of playdoh up each nostril and in each ear, you name it, my kids have had a go at it, in fact we were at A&E getting peas removed from a nostril not two months ago, perhaps Triple P isn't working after all). Seriously, most 4 year olds have little by way of brain other than the bit that controls their madness.

When does she start school?

The thing is, if she doesn't care if you remove a toy, then that isn't working as a discipline tool. I also think that giving 2 warnings is giving her the idea that it's ok to push you. I would give 1 wary and then if she ignores that, an immediate consequence.

*warning

I think you're using too many different methods. Choose one and stick to it and DO NOT make her soup if she doesn't want dinner. That's just asking for trouble.

Sometimes, when children are at there most challenging they actually need a bigger hug not a bigger punishment.

I don't normally go for fluffy parenting, but with my youngest, punishment didn't really work, he just laughed or shouted back. Sitting him on the naughty step whilst I sat next to him calmed him down. Telling him I loved him calmed him down, then I could tell him . You must not xxxxx and remove a privilege.

Can be hard to do, but worked for us. ( DS1 v different, normal discipline worked for him )

I feel for you OP, I've had problems with my 4yo DS recently. He just didn't care about the threats of taking things or privileges away, he just wants his own way all the time at any cost. The more consequences he faced, the more he'd dig his heels in and up the ante. It got to the point that my DH and I had a word with the school as he'd started punching and shouting at us at home when things escalated. His teacher suggested we turn it on its head - instead of threatening the loss of an item or privilege, say for example, it used to be "get your shoes on in the next 5 minutes or you won't be riding by your scooter to school." Now we say "if you get your shoes on in the next 5 minutes then you GET to ride your scooter to school." I have to say, I was doubtful it would work but his behaviour has improved greatly since we started doing this. Now any time he's cooperative, I give him praise for it and he loves that. Might be worth a try to just make this subtle shift in the way you phrase things.

Poor you

What you are describing is classic, classic boundary pushing (not that that makes it any easier to deal with).

Next time, 1 dinner. If she doesn't want it it gets taken away without comment, no substitutions - but she can change her mind til bedtime. Its all about giving her choices but taking away the power. It's ok if she does or doesn't eat so you can let her choose. But no messing you around.

Taking away all her stuff as a punishment is not great but it does sound like she's got too much stuff if she's not motivated to take care of it. Let her earn it back 1 thing at a time and, if you are left with loads of stuff she's not bothered about maybe get rid of some of it.

Above all try and combine being loving with being firm and calm. It will be fine, honest.

Nothing to add in the way of practical advice, but I just wanted to say - don't beat yourself up. You're obviously a caring and conscientious Mum and one emotional outburst is not going to scar her for life. Repeat after me - I AM NOT FAILING.

I've done it before and felt absolutely and utterly shit afterwards - however, while it's clearly not a tactic I'd ever recommend, I have found that the occasional outburst helped my DS1 understand how much he's upsetting me with his behavious, and that's actually helped the situation. Like I say, it's not anything you should ever plan/intend to do, but it might give DD something to think about.

I'm not a parent yet, so apologies if I seem presumptuous but this struck a chord with me because it reminded me of my mother's problems with me. She remembers me as a terrible, difficult child, largely, I believe because she took everything personally. No matter that every kid goes through a slow eating phase, or a having-tantrums-in-shoe-shops phase. Her reaction was that it was deliberately and calculatedly aimed at her to wind her up. Which obviously to some extent it was just because she was my mother and was asking me to do the things I refused to do. But she never understood (and still doesn't now!) that sometimes people just do stuff just because, and she's not necessarily the prime target. It's not necessarily personal, especially from a small kid. I'm not saying you are, but she's very self centred like this.

I wonder if you're ascribing to your dd a depth and complexity of motivation that she simply doesn't have. IME this can massively escalate issues.

I would agree that making her a different meal is just pandering to her idea of "What I wan, I can get, if I make enough fuss".

From now on you eat what you are given or you go without. She wont go hungry, thats a lesson that they learn very quickly, especially as they are reminded of the consequences every time they refuse a meal!

1st warning "x stop doing (insert activity)"

2nd warning "I have asked you once, if you do not stop then x will happen"

Maybe I should just head straight for the 2nd. The reason I've used several in conjunction is because none of them seem to work. What can I do when she doesn't care about any punishment that is given?

With regards to the swimming, it isn't a lesson it's me and her going swimming for something fun to do together. Instead of swimming I will later take her for a walk in the woods or something similar because life with no fun would not be good for either of us.

She starts school after the summer next year. When I think about it this has been going on for longer than three months because I remember having a conversation with my Mum around Christmas. So possibly more like 6.

You have to stick with one punishment, and only one warning. Two warnings gives her the message that she can keep pushing the boundaries.

My friend's DS liked to push boundaries and she did all of those consequences and warnings. The favourite was pebbles in a jar-those bloody pebbles went in and out constantly as did the scooter being removed and no story at bed time.

Her DS kind of engaged with it as a sort of game I think and it was bloody hard work for my friend.

My suggestion would be to calmly say 'You seem very angry and I'd like to help you feel better. When you can stop shouting/throwing things let me know and we'll sort it out together.' Then disengage. Get busy in the kitchin or read a book. Then when she's calmer give her a cuddle and move on.

And your parents are being unfair to not invite you both round on Sunday. She's four ffs, what danger are they fearing from her exactly?

Also, she'll move through this phase and you'll both be fine. Honest!

Ah im sorry OP. I lost it with my 3yo a few days ago for kicking me in the neck.
No helpful suggestions but a big old cuddle your way

Like Charlotte333 I run parenting courses, it's a huge part of my life and I still cock it up all the time and find implementing some strategies, particularly praising good stuff when they're really pushing your buttons, very tough at times.

Here's the first secret people don't talk about: part of this stuff is you WILL cock it up. You will lose your temper. Sometimes you will say regrettable things. Pema Chodron, who is a Buddhist NUN, talks about how all she needs to get over the self deception that she is never aggressive is to spend a weekend with her granddaughter, who she loves more than anyone else in the world.

This stuff is hard. It is messy. We all screw it up sometimes (the ones who never lose their temper will do other unhelpful stuff, no one is a saint).

The second secret is this: the key to managing behaviour effectively is to be aware of your own triggers and able to see your fear, anger, confusion and hold these without acting through them, reacting from them. Your thoughts will send you a million miles away from where you want to be. Mindfulness can be helpful with learning to step back at critical moments.

But you'll still cock it up. And that's okay. It is not a catastrophe. You are not looking at her being in a youth offenders institute at 10 because she is an unreasonable little sod at four.

Does she go to nursery or preschool?

It may be good for her, my DD calmed down a lot when she went to nursery. She was very self centred and being the youngest of 6 she was used to being fawned over.

Nursery knocked the edges off, she soon realised that being a demanding little madam just meant she was playing on her own! If she is 4 then she should be getting her free hours so it wont cost you anything.