about HV reporting me to GP

[spectral]

I took DD to her 2-year development check last week. It was at 1pm, which I wasn't thrilled about as dd is normally asleep then and that's important work time for me, but I didn't have much faith in the possibility of rescheduling again, as we'd initially had a letter making an appointment for a date already in the past. I turned up on time with a completed copy of the development questionnaire and a very sleepy DD.

HV went through the questionnaire asking each question again, word-for-word. About five minutes in she said I seemed 'stressed' and asked why; I told her that DD really needed a sleep, that I really needed the time to work, and that I wasn't sure why I had bothered to fill out the questionnaire in advance if we were going to go through it again word-for-word. Appointment went a bit faster after that; I said that I would ask for help if I thought dd needed it, but that we had no concerns whatsoever about her development. HV agreed no concerns. DD didn't want to cooperate with being weighed and measured, but HV said she looked pretty 'in proportion' so it didn't really matter, and appointment ended by mutual agreement.

Six days later I get a phone call from DD's GP saying he's had an email from HV about me and is 'calling out of a duty of care to a child' -- so clearly not a friendly call just to check everything's ok. I told him about the conversation I had at HV appointment, explained again why I might have seemed stressed, but that that HV had not indicated to me that she might have grounds for passing anything on. I pressed him to say whether there was anything out of the ordinary going on, and he said no, and I decided to be honest with him and say that I was very unhappy (ok, I actually said furious) that HV had decided to report me to my daughter's GP.

I am utterly freaked out, though. I adore DD and do my best for her, as does DH, and I think we are doing ok. I did express a negative opinion about the way the appointment was organised, but I think that should be allowed! What on earth is going on?

Well my Mum was an HV when I was a teen and believe me they play a very important role! Nowadays it is known that children in well-off families can get short shrift too and I am glad she was doing her bit actually!
Was the GP calling to see if you were stressed and perhaps in need of support? In my experience it is always possibly to arrange an appointment for a time to suit and the HV will normally visit the home so that they can see the child's context. She was just doing her job! My HVs were super - sadly I didn't get to see much of them.

You are taking what I said out of context though and no I don't go round saying that to parents clearly it was said in context to the situation in the OP

OP, I can see how this happened. You came across as stressed and defensive at a health appointment for your child. These are key indicators that something MAY be wrong and she took the appropriate measures IN CASE you needed any more support for your child. Yes, the mix up with the appointment date is midly annoying but not her fault and you were rude to her in her working environment.

JoanHickson, As a social worker I find your statement that "CP trains professionals to destroy families" entirely offensive. I and many other professionals work extremely hard on a daily basis to help families. It's a very ignorant viewpoint you have there.

I am talking to you as a professional. I'm talking about how you talk to parents who are likely to be distressed hugely by hearing this.

You can respond aggressively, or you can take on board the content of the post, that's entirely your choice.

Pompous is an interesting word to use.

Which whirlpool is no doubt why the HV in question had a professional conversation with the OPs GP to see if there was a bigger picture

I still suffer from anxiety a bit although am much recovered, this could be damaging the children?

I was quite ill when they were small, no-one told me that I was likely causing them damage. We are talking about the pathways developing incorrectly as if they were being abused or neglected is that right?

I am feeling a bit freaked now.

I meet mums who are stressed a lot, people have busy lives and jobs and babies and toddlers, I had no idea about this.

Whirlpool, I can really hear the distress in your posts.

You did not choose to be ill.

If you are asking if women with antenatal mh issues need to have the option of medical termination, there is no evidence out there that would indicate this is something that would be necessary.

I know where you are. I have been there too. I was very scared for a long time that having had an anxiety disorder in pregnancy would have damaged my baby.

I now work researching stress and anxiety in parenting, and work extensively with parents who experience mental distress in the perinatal period.

You are okay, you are not broken and neither are your children. It just is what it is.

Sharon, I'm not just having some pop at you to be "pompous" as you put it or shame you or make you feel bad, though I was initially annoyed at the way you casually wrote that stress and anxiety can hinder brain development in the first three years.

I'm sure your intention was good, but this stuff is just incendiary for women experiencing mental distress at this time in their lives. It's one of the deepest, most terrifying beliefs: "I am broken and my brokenness will harm my baby".

Duplo I'm
Not talking to parents though am
I? Do you think I sit at a development check and say oh dear you seem stressed that can damage your child's brain? Or might just do
Similar to what the hv here did? You are not talking to me as a professional as if you talk to professionals like this I feel sorry for those in your wider multi disciplinary team who get accused of saying all
Sorts to parents!

Hopefully this will be the end of it. My hv is batshit crazy.

So if she needs to talk to her GP because she was stressed at a one-off appt and that may be a concern for her child then what on earth for those of us who were really ill there's a serious risk here then that I have caused real problems for my children and I didn't even know. Why was this not told to me? DH was fine he is very healthy I could have moved out or something until I was better so they were not exposed to me. Why are these options not being given. Poeple need full access to the facts, if being around a person with MHPs is a problem even if that person is functioning normally to all appearances then that should be told.

I know everyone's explaining why the HV went through the form in addition to asking the OP to fill it out in advance, but why didn't the HV explain it herself?

It strikes me that the HV relied on her position of power to get the OP to comply and failed to treat the OP with respect or just Engage with her properly. Why didn't she explain the purpose of the form and how they use it? Especially when the OP made it clear she didn't know why and saw it as wasting her very precious time in the day.

Why didn't the HV suggest rearranging the appointment for a better time. If the OP was stressed enough to warrant a follow up, why didn't she try and engage with her and suggest thjngs to ease the stress. That would have additionally helped the HV explore the situation a bit more and see how the OP reacted.

I think it's rubbish that mothers (& it is mostly mothers), are expected to 'play the game' in order not to raise any suspicions, told to keep their head down as if it's then their fault for daring to complain. I can't see how that situation is in any way conducive to helping the child.

The system holds all the power, it can make mistakes and then people are considered unreasonable for reacting to that. The system even allows HCP's/ admin to make appointment errors then blame it on the patient/ parent, which could then be used as evidence against that person. Why is this acceptable? Why must we pretend we don't understand the potential consequences? Or challenger he inherent unfairness or lack of respect? it doesn't make sense.

The social contract is:
Authority has all power, makes mistakes with no consequences of accountability. Families must be civil, gracious and engage with the authority no matter how they are treated or engaged with. Lack of compliance can be used against them so grin and bear it and don't draw attention to yourself.

Power & respect massively out of balance. No individual at HV level is the blame for the system, but the system allows for people to be treated badly, and then that person gets told they must endure it or it will get worse for them, or that by asking to be treated professionally, somehow other children may suffer.

I support child protection endeavors wholeheartedly, and believe that social services have a very difficult job. And HV straddle two different remits which make uneasy bed fellows.

But the system could be massively improved, and at the heart of that lies a shift - having a basic respect for people.

Respect for HV and SW, and a respect for their expertise that is compromised by ludicrously stretched case loads.

Respect for families and patients, understanding that if you treat people fairly, kindly and with basic politeness, they tend to respond in kind. Relying on a power imbalance, to force people to comply through fear, well, that is sloppy behaviour and ultimately makes the job harder.

How do you think I felt studying it after being on the verge of suicidal when I had my DD?
Yes it's uncomfortable and most parents who look into will feel some kind of guilt about what they did to their child but I can assure you having been there I am all about supporting parents not demonising them.

Yes... but of course you are talking to parents.

If you say "I am a health visitor and stress hinders brain development in children until three" on a parenting site where the vast majority of readers are mothers, then you are talking to parents.

Unfortunately, it was my own experience and I have heard from a lot of women since that some health professionals WILL tell you that your stress and anxiety are damaging to your baby's development.

I'm sorry that you think that the people I work with are to be pitied if I challenge them on unhelpful language use, and say "I sincerely hope you don't tell your clients things that aren't grounded in science".

Again, you can choose to be defensive and attack, or take on board the content and intention of my posts.

Duplo yes well I think they're fine. They are bigger now, and DD1 is top of her class, DD2 had some speech issues they think this was due to glue ear when she was learning how to make the sounds as a baby. She is fine though the teacher says she is doing well. We are a close family I think, but really what can you compare it to, there is no way of telling what they would have been like if I was not unwell. DD1 is very compliant for eg, which worries me a bit, I've put this down to her personality, and am trying to think of ways to get her to be a bit more assertive. Maybe this stems from these issues when she was young. Is there any way of telling? Probably not. Something else to think about certainly.

Is any of this mitigated at all if there is a parent in the home who is not unwell?

You are determined to take what I've said out of it's entire context so crack on.
It's like domestic violence damages a child's development must mean I say to all parents in a domestic violence relationship 'you know you are damaging your child right?'

Okay...

So I am going to take your line here:

"Yes it's uncomfortable and most parents who look into will feel some kind of guilt about what they did to their child but I can assure you having been there I am all about supporting parents not demonising them."

Being ill, as you know, is not a choice. It is not something anyone has *done" to their child.

I am sorry that you, like so many of us, have had the experience of severe mental distress.

This makes it all the more important that you are careful and open to what you might say that might not be helpful.

I think something that is unfortunate for health care professionals outside of psychology (and I was one before I had my own experiences and changed directions in my career) is that we don't get sufficient supervision to know when our own experiences might show up in our interactions with clients. This is one of the main reasons I moved away from my original career (in community health with young parents) to somewhere that there could be more open challenge and supervision to address this kind of thing.

The difficulty is that this stuff isn't just "uncomfortable" - it is potentially dangerously triggering to use language lightly when people are distressed.

Sharon "Yes it's uncomfortable and most parents who look into will feel some kind of guilt about what they did to their child" so you are pretty sure that I have done something to them. But, you haven't even met us. Is it that much of a definite? How can it be? What about my husband, he was well, won't that have counted for anything?

I just, I am having real trouble with this.

It can't be true surely that it's as black and white as this?

Whirlpool, especially with attachment, the research says that the effects are mediated by having a parent who isn't suffering.

Another thing that mediates the impact of antenatal and postnatal stress, anxiety and depression is where the parent is responsive and nurturing in their behaviour towards their child, even if they have to "fake it while they make it", and where they work actively to reduce coercive parenting practices: hitting, shouting, belittling, shaming.

Even when children are much older, the effects of early attachment difficulties or stress in early childhood can be mediated by changes in parent behaviour that support a nurturing, loving stance to children and encourage the parent to be able to take the perspective of the child.

Ffs duplo you are getting up my pipe now. You really couldn't be any more patronising if you tried.
I will continue working with the families I do listening to them and supporting them well as I do and you can sit there with your head tilted cats bum mouthed about how I'm harming them and telling them they are single handedly damaging their children

Whirlpool I'm not talking about you per say. I'm talking about all parents who learn about this after they've had children. They may think omg I left him to cry I've damaged him. Omg I responded straight away I've damaged him. Omg I laughed when he fell over I've damaged him.
We can all find fault in the way we've parented and all evidence we could read things into.

Really? That's what you're reading in what I'm saying, Sharon?

There's no cat's bum mouth here, that's just your mind making up stories about what my intention is here.

I'm actually quite passionate and open-hearted about this stuff, I don't have any sense of being patronising about it and I'm sorry you are continuing to read the content of what I'm saying as an attack on you personally.

Bloody hell all this just because I tried to explain the hvs possible motives for speaking to the doctors. Not only am I a useless professional who has no point being in my post but now I use damaging language to parents and trigger their distress. So told by someone in psychology! Oh well waitrose beckons!

I didn't say any of that. You're really overinterpreting that.

I said it would be good if HCPs had more supervision, because in my experience we don't get enough support for dealing with situations where we have had experiences that match our client. I really strongly feel all people who work with people need this to support their work.

I never, ever said you were a useless professional. I said some of the language you used today was potentially a bit damaging and triggering. It's really not a statement on you as a person, it's outside of you, it's just an action. We can always act differently, you know? If you're not saying this stuff to people, then you're not saying this stuff to people so there's no reason to get angry and upset and flame me for it!

Please don't take it as some sort of nasty, aggressive, shaming thing. It wasn't meant to be, though as I've said I did have a moment of feeling a bit pissed off (and in all honesty, a bit triggered) by the statement that parental stress and anxiety in the under threes can hinder brain development.

duplodon Mon 04-May-15 11:03:59 that is really helpful thank you. I did my best to appear "normal" as you say, and my illness manifested in being withdrawn more so I didn't need to mitigate any shouting and stuff. I think that having DH around would help, he bore the brunt of it and looked after us all and is a very affectionate and demonstrative person. Also as I BF there was a certain amount of enforced skin to skin / physical closeness if you like so hopefully that helped as well. Just trying to make myself feel better now, obviously aware that any other women reading who didn't BF or did get shouty whatever not saying that wasn't right or something just for my situation trying to think of things to feel a bit better about this.

I'm going to hide this now and give DH a bit of a hug. I hope this thread hasn't upset any other women who struggled / are struggling xx

It's fine duplo I'm not offended. I think
A green uniform would suit me