Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

I voted No, but I think the point about alcoholism and obesity is pretty offensive. Yes, there are areas in Scotland with a lot of social problems (where I live I regularly see people going for their methadone, and they have a very particular physical type - very thin, malnourished looking, sounding vaguely drunk all the time, pitted ruined skin - and I wonder what hope there is for them, even if they were no longer on drugs) and there are areas of Glasgow with shamefully low life expectancy (although there are other more prosperous areas of Glasgow with quite high life expectancy) but as we've said above, Scotland is a diverse country. It isn't all Trainspotting. I'm sure the Economist have their research, and for what it's worth I don't think the economy of an independent Scotland would have been very successful, but not because of problems with alcohol and health.

Thinking about the 'not a true Scot' aspect of identity and voting, I realised that the only people I got this from (and I did get it quite a lot) was online, from people I'd never met. I debated the issues with friends and family quite a lot, and none of them said that to me, nor did I call them stupid, which was something I saw directed at Yes voters online. I did have one woman who accosted me in the street whilst I was out campaigning tell me I wasn't really Scottish, but as her view was that only people who live in this very small part of the city are 'real Scots' and that 'Perth is not Scotland' I do actually think of her as a bit nutty. And as I said above, quite a few of my English friends were voting Yes, so it would have been completely bizarre to have discussions based on national identity.

You mean alcoholics like Winston Churchill.............?

The independence vote in Scotland was largely split on a class basis. If you were working class you were likely to vote yes. If you were middle or upper class you were likely to vote no. And that is because the Governments at Westminster largely do little to help working class people.

morage- and nothing to do with the fact that SNP leans to the left?

morage - I would argue that it was because the Labour government did too much to help working class people, via tax credits. TC are basically a bribe for the needy to shut up and enjoy their misery to a slightly better standard. It means nothing ever changes. The rich get richer and poor get poorer.

morage The independence vote in Scotland was largely split on a class basis. If you were working class you were likely to vote yes. If you were middle or upper class you were likely to vote no. And that is because the Governments at Westminster largely do little to help working class people.

Generalising hugely, the vote was split in far more ways than that. Rural areas were far more likely to vote No, the far north and south voted predominately No, women voted No more than men, etc.. And I would say that the fact that the SNP knows exactly what buttons to press to appeal to the less fortunate in society has more to do than any "help" provided to them.

Also the fact that perhaps Labour has been promising such help for many decades and areas of poverty remain as present as ever (just how do you have an average life expectancy, in 2015, in parts of Glasgow, in the low 50s in a country with free lengthy education and an NHS?). Although much improvement has been done. Have you ever been to Dundee recently? That city must have had more investment poured into it than anywhere else in Europe. It is amazing. How on earth was it all funded? Because if you compare it to other Scottish cities, e.g. Perth or Aberdeen, Dundee seems to have got most of the investment. Its also a hotbed for the SNP. Must be the fairer and more equal society at work...

TheChandler - it was about bloody time Dundee had some investment.

That low life expectancy stat was one anomaly from one ward from 2003.

It's so frustrating that it's become something of an urban myth!

The blip was caused by a wet high level of knife crime in a small area where a disproportionate number of young men died from stab wounds. This brought down the whole area's life expectancy stats.

Since then there has been a big change in police tactics re knife crime which has massively reduced knife crime and murders in the city.

That one stat is no longer relevant and has nothing to do with the NHS or education.

Wow - I didn't know that statistic was for an area that suffered especially badly from knife crime! I did know that Glasgow has been very successful in lowering knife crime and, I think 'gang culture in general.

The problems of obesity and alcoholism are greater in Scotland than in ruk and greater in rUK than (most of?) the rest of the EU. So that does put an extra burden on NHS Scotland, but that newspaper article is pretty cheap IMO.

JackieHarris That low life expectancy stat was one anomaly from one ward from 2003.

It's so frustrating that it's become something of an urban myth!

Glad to hear it! Who would have thought it was all down to knife crime and the problems of drug abuse, alcoholism and general poor health due to unhealthy lifestyles had such a minimal effect? Glasgow Sheriff Court isn't the busiest criminal court in Europe for nothing!

I remember watching a tv programme on poverty in Glasgow, and the difficulties in tackling it, and I remember seeing a feature about two men, aged about late thirties, saying that not only had they never worked and never been out of Glasgow, they had never been out of Partick! Or was it Govan or Shettleston? Anyway, the programme makers took them on a bus trip to the outskirts of Glasgow, maybe Balfron or somewhere, and showed them playing on a tyre type swing, and they were having the time of their lives! They suffered no physical or mental disabilities, but simply were not motivated, confident enough, whatever to do these things that most people take for granted.

Its incredibly strange, when you think that some of the high rise flats in Glasgow are also a dumping ground, for want of a better phrase, for immigrants from Third World countries, who despite suffering much greater poverty and often worse, are motivated enough to try and escape those conditions to improve their lives.

How on earth do you tackle that conundrum?

This article www.theguardian.com/society/2006/jan/21/health.politics

seems to base it on NHS statistics that refer to alcoholism and bad diet, rather than knife crime.

My grandfather was an Irish descended one-time catholic who came from Shettleston. He left for Edinburgh as soon as he could. I've been to Shettleston a couple of times (no relatives but just out of interest) and when the sun was shining on the solid tenement buildings that were left, it had its own beauty. Its a shame its lost the heart of its community and kind of been left behind by society. Theres been a lot of regeneration attempts over recent decades but most people that can seem to move out.

I'm afraid that Glasgow is not known as the sick man of europe for nothing. The Glasgow effect is well known and can't be purely explained by deprivation as even in comparison to cities such as Liverpool and Manchester, with similar levels of deprivation, the life expectancy in Glasgow is markedly lower.

www.gcph.co.uk/work_themes/theme_1_understanding_glasgows_health/excess_mortality_comparing_glasgow

Thanks for that link TrixyMalixy, fascinating.

fullfact.org/factchecks/life_expectancy_glasgow_kabul_george_galloway_respect_party-2674

I like Nicola Sturgeon's hair; but her lips look like one of those zip fasteners on a sandwich bag. No SNP for me I'm afraid.

Because of her looks loop? Is that how we judge women?

What about the other leaders- do they have more acceptable looks?

I'm not voting SNP, but I think Nicola Sturgeon has a really good sense of style. I like her hair now, I think it really suits her.

Still not voting for her party though.

It does really depress me the emphasis on how (female) politicians look. There's a bit of it about male politicians, but not much. But Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May in particular seem to attract newspaper articles about their hairstyles and choice of clothes - really? I'm sure there's lots of other things that could be said, you know politics, voting, speeches etc. We don't have to get subjected to endless rhetoric about shirt and tie colour choice from male politicians do we? Fair enough the occasional comment about Boris or Michael Fabricant on hairstyle, but otherwise people seem more inclined to talk about what the men actually say.

I don't particularly care how people eat burgers/bacon rolls/hot dogs etc either.

fulltothebrim on the assumption that you are indeed human, I'd suggest that you also consider people by their appearance.

Are you for real loop?

I don't generally judge the ability of someone to be able to do their job based on the attractiveness of their lips.

chiruri I agree to an extent, but we do judge on appearance. If not why do politicians (incl Sturgeon) have makeovers and advisers etc to address this very instinctive issue?

Appearing professional is one thing, but commenting on a facial feature is just ridiculous.

I wouldn't vote SNP if my life depended on it but Nicola Sturgeon looks great and carries herself wells, seems very comfortable in her own skin.

I caught the end of her question and answer session after QT - she was very good at dealing with audience members.

She could give Ed Miliband a few pointers I think!

I think that Nicola Sturgeon is full of shit but it will take a generation to work this out. At the moment her only competition is the Labour Party, which is full of utter c**nts. In a few years the SNP will become accountable for the melee of poverty in Scotland.

Anyway, until then, I think she's a thin lipped liar....like a plastic sandwich bag! :)