Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

They have indeed been around for a very long time indeed. There are significant issues connected with transparency in the use of public funds to build and maintain them but then no recent local or central government has had the nerve to address those issues fully, SNP or not.

I don't think anyone is saying that the problem with those schools is that they are for community use.

Ours was already built, so nothing ropey about it.

Personally, if they could fund a rebuild of the high school my children will be going to then I wouldn't care where they money came from ...

This thread's getting a bit nasty. So we're unattractive, whiney and make up words (in the urban west), thus not speaking 'real Scots' (that phrase sounds awfy familiar)?

Glaswegian is a dialect, a rich, funny, fluid one! Just because we don't say quine or loon or ken doesn't mean we're just making shit up to insult or intimidate people. Houfin', boufin', hummin', honkin', ahm ur, ahm urny, wee herry, fannybaws...no end of great stuff!

For more wonderful Glaswegian dialect, read The Patter by Michael Munro, illustrated by John Byrne. It's an eye opener!

Ours was already built, so nothing ropey about it.

That's precisely the public and community perception that nobody wants to challenge in non-urban areas. That discussion is probably for another thread though so I wish you luck with having your children's school rebuilt.

OneNight - I have no idea what you mean. I worked in a community school 20 years ago. It was a school long before the community use thing started. They are having an almighty battle about where to build a new one now, but that's for other reasons.

We live somewhere else now. It breaks my heart that my children will have to go to a grey, falling down dump when others get to have a lovely new school (see Dunfermline High or Auchmuty for example).

I don't think we need to get nasty about language. I think we'd all agree that dialects vary across Scotland. I think of that as a regional identity (eg Glaswegian) rather than a Scottish identity though, as there is such variation.

Quite. The only reason that those who live North of the Border have a collective identity that extends beyond cultural/linguistic groupings is that way back in history it was determined that an area to be called Scotland would have its own legal system and political status. But really every country is comprised of an infinite number of sub groups at every level, hence the democratic process to find a way of governing the area that is palatable to all. Billy Connolly said he had more in common with a welder from Liverpool than with a crofter from Stornoway an. that makes sense. Whem it comes down to it we vote for the party that suits us best and we jope that enpugh of those in the same country think likewise (and possibly seek to convince them they should) but that is not to say that we think that the reason they should think likewise is simply because they live in the same country.

Jessie I wasn't aware that there was a 'collective identity' - at any rate, I think those from Orkney and Shetland might like to point out that the document granted by the Danish Crown which pawned them to Scotland preserved their separate legal system - which has not been complied with. although arguably in property law they do still have an entirely different system of landholding from the rest of Scotland.

It is a collective identity in that those who live in the geographical region that is within Scotland's political borders are all governed by the same laws, laws which do not apply to those outside Scotland. i.e. it is the one thing that they have in common and to the exclusion of those who don't live in Scotland.

Other than making the choice to live where they do, the people who share this collective identity have not chosen it and for many of them, it is the only thing they have in common.

There may be local nuances to the law (as there are by-laws in all areas) but (for example) Orkney and Shetland residents have free tuition fees and prescriptions in common with the rest of Scotland but to the exclusion of England.

just for accuracy Jessie - you write 'There may be local nuances to the law (as there are by-laws in all areas) but (for example) Orkney and Shetland residents have free tuition fees and prescriptions in common with the rest of Scotland but to the exclusion of England'

Orkney and Shetland have a lot more than local bylaws setting their laws apart from the rest of Scotland - their land law is based on udal law and was never feudal, titles being held direct and not from the crown, because it is based on Scandinavian law, not scots or even English law.

If you want to get into the ethnic history of Scotland we were a land of 3 peoples- Picts in the ne, celts in the west and Britons in the south. (I don't know about Orkney/Shetland)

I've lived in very different parts of Scotland and there are distinct differences beyond the accents. In one area I was pretty much treated as a 'foreigner' .

I do still think there's a Scottish identity though.

I think it's brilliant that there's so much regional variation in such a wee country. If I go up to Skye, it does almost feel like another country - the smells, the scenery, the lovely Highland accents, Gaelic spoken more widely. My great grandad from South Uist was always more comfortable in Gaelic than English, but I barely know a word. And the borders feels like a world apart, with all that wide, open space and another lovely, musical accent.

FIL is from the borders and I once tried to do an impression of his accent for my Middle Eastern students. They were all: 'oh, how lovely, this is how you talk at home?' We really are lucky to have so much variety in such a small place.

I think the Anglo-Saxons and the Viking/Scandinavians, and the Jutes might be worth a mention JackieHarris! Especially since much of their language forms the basis of Scots! Maybe you studied a very particular period of Scottish history only? In some parts of Scotland, Scandinavian heritage has been measured at well over 50% and more if you include the Anglo-Saxons, similar to England. Don't forget that even Dublin was under Scandinavian rule for a good while. I agree though that pushing the Celtic/Pictish mythology angle is good for tourism and investment in Gaelic.

I think the Anglo-Saxons and the Viking/Scandinavians, and the Jutes might be worth a mention JackieHarris! Especially since much of their language forms the basis of Scots! Maybe you studied a very particular period of Scottish history only? In some parts of Scotland, Scandinavian heritage has been measured at well over 50% and more if you include the Anglo-Saxons, similar to England. Don't forget that even Dublin was under Scandinavian rule for a good while. I agree though that pushing the Celtic/Pictish mythology angle is good for tourism and investment in Gaelic

I query why some people try to deny what others say they feel. Am I not allowed to feel Scottish without being able to articulate exactly why?

Of course you are, Scots. IMO anyway, national identity is far more about emotional connection than anything quantifiable. The idea of national identity as something that can be quantified is pretty outdated in modern thought anyway, and pretty offensive if it starts to exclude people who 'don't tick all the boxes.' I did my doctoral research, partly, on concepts of belonging for people from former French colonies and diaspora and in post-colonial theory identity is conceived of as far more fluid than fixed, mutable and full of potential rather than limited.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is no, nobody can tell you that you have to justify how you feel because it's personal to you and totally informed by your experience.

A little bit of national identity goes a long way. 'British' suits me fine.

ScotsWhaHae - I suppose the question was, is their an archetypal Scottish identity? Is their a common or typical feeling of what it is to be Scottish? Or, do incomers see a set of behaviour, culture, ethics that is peculiar to Scotland?

Behind the question was my interest in how much of the motivation for voting for Scottish independence and/or voting snp comes from a feeling that Scotland is sufficiently different fro rUK to deserve to be independent. And if the perceived 'underdog' situation affects the way people in Scotland feel about being Scottish.

But I didn't want to frame it in political terms, in the hope that people would just explain how they felt without reference to politics.

And I was particularly interested to hear from posters who have lived in other areas and therefore in a position to compare 'scottishness' with other cultures/populations/countries etc. Sometimes it turns out that things we think are peculiarly Scottish are typical of other countries/regions/cultures.

I am interested in the degree to which the indy ref and focus on the governance of Scotland has affected the extent to which Scottish voters identify as Scottish. This is because I won't be voting snp and want Scotland to remain in UK.

Apologies again for making fun of you buying stuff in Harrods - it's preferable to me going there only to use their loos and see if any of the sales assistants will think I might really be going to make a very expensive purchase. They must get fed up of people wasting their time. (They won't be on commission though, hopefully)

Stop going on about Harrods, that's completely irrelevant and you mention it only to undermine me. I didn't even take offence at that. You aren't interested in anything other than belittling any attempt people make to describe their feeling of Scottish identity.

You seem to have interlinked feeling Scottish with supporting the SNP and that with wanting independence. Because you are openly opposed to the second two things you are disapproving of the first because they have become all the same thing to you.

I question how any national, regional or cultural identity can be divorced from politics.

I saw this today in the Herald and thought it interesting in light of the discussion on this thread.

www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/scotlands-differences-however-real-and-profound-are-not-a-threat-but-a-gift-to-a-.124533863

Goodness! Don't you see any irony in claiming that other posters are unfair to you when you yourself claim to know better than the OP why they started a thread And refuse to accept that someone might genuinely feel bad at taking a cheap shot at a poster? Especially when you picked me up on my use of the word 'tube' for the underground trains in Glasgow!

"As I believe that the only justification for Scottish independence; the raison d'etre of the snp, is to meet the needs of a significantly different population"

It may be your belief that the only justification for independence is some sort of inherent difference in population...but that doesn't make it a fact.

Unfortunately there are too many alcoholics and obese people in Scotland to sustain an independant economy.

Source: Economist 9-16 Sep 2014.

Of course it doesn't make it a fact. That why I specified it was (and still is) my belief. I think when there has been a stable union for such a long time there needs to be a very strong justification for breaking it up.
It seems that many /most snp/yes voters don't cite a strong Scottish identity as their reason for wanting independence anyway.
Interesting article in the Herald. Thank you. I so agree that we need electoral reform.