Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

PS it's not the tube in Glasgow. It's the subway or underground. Tube is London only

Language.

No one's mentioned the language - a few references to Gaelic, but, what about Scots?

I'm from the Central Belt, and, Scots pervades everyday language, to the point that when I travel abroad for work I have to make a conscious effort to check my volcabulary.

"yir talkin' pish" is not the same as "you are wrong, I disagree" (not yet used in a work meeting, to be fair)

And, whilst I think about it,

Minging is not the same as unpleasant

Houfin' is not the same as minging

Boufin' is not the same as Houfin'

Moroculous is similar to those three, but, only within the context of being drunk.

The language is very expressive. Scots has a lot of words which are Almost Swear Words But Aren't Quite.

I think that's part of the identity. As a nation, Scots aren't terribly deferential. Like was said upthread, you are expected to justify your position, so, if you are First Minister, you'd better be able to joust verbally. And, it's the language that allows that.

A lack of sense of humour, of robustness to take a joke, of understanding when it ceases to be funny - these are concepts fairly universally understood, and, I think, that a lot of the phrasing that allows that is rooted in Scots.

siiiiiiiiigh Your great post made me think of a related point: the distinctive features of Scottish literature, especially works that are written primarily in Scots or feature a lot of Scots words. There are quite of few modern ones, too. I particularly like Buddha Da by Anne Donovan.

I mentioned Scottish notes but haven't discussed the Scottish vote .. Get your facts right

There's no tube in Glasgow ya daftie and it was pretty obvious I mentioned the tube in a London context.

I'm very glad you enjoyed Harrods Scots, like a wee visit there myself on occasion....

Coming late to the Scottish notes thing - I've rarely had a problem, and the only one I can think of from adult life (think it used to be more of an issue when I was younger - but security for detecting fraudulent banknotes wasn't as good then) was in a small charity shop in Kent that was about to close, who were going to accept my Clydesdale bank note but were clearly a bit confused about it. Because they probably never see it. There is one issuer of bank notes in England, so people in shops will be very used to them, and to the things they're meant to look out for in terms of forgeries. Here we have three different issuers.

When I worked in a shop, many years ago when banknote forgery was pretty common, we were supposed to be really vigilant about checking. I remember someone giving me a note from a Northern Irish bank, and I hope I didn't offend the customer but I had to get my manager to check it because I had never seen one, and we were regularly being told about our responsibilities not to take counterfeit notes.

There's also the added complication that only Bank of England notes are technically 'legal tender'. Scotland and Northern Ireland have several banks authorised to issue notes, but they are not actually 'legal tender', it is up to the shop or business to accept them. In my experience, most these days do. Small businesses might rarely see them and pause over them, but I rarely have any problem.

Re unpicking the identity question - I really don't think there is a single Scottish identity. But as others have said, sometimes it is just something you feel. I feel 'Perthshire' despite living in Edinburgh for over half my life. I probably feel more British than Scottish when I think about it.

I have a photo I took outside Holyrood last year. It has three flags in it - Scottish, British, EU. If you could slip a Perth logo in there as well, that would sum up how I feel. These identities are all mine, and the emphasis over which one I identify with changes over time.

Language - I don't have a broad Scottish accent (as I said above, I got picked on for this at school so I am a bit over-sensitive about it) and don't live in the area I grew up in, so don't really use the central belt language much.

I think identity is instinctive - ask 10 people what defines their identity, and you will probably get 10 different answers even if they all claim the same identity.

I can't define a single British identity either.

Good morning.

I stand corrected - Glasgow underground train system - clockwork orange, subway . (been on it myself plenty times still makes me think of the NY subway!) Scots - I thought perhaps you had never been on an 'underground.'

Christinayang - I wasn't particularly thinking of you when I mentioned things like the salesperson in Harrods thinking Scotland counted as overseas - I must admit that's a new one on me - and the Scottish banknotes. I think it was me who first mentioned behaviour like that.

Hopefully nobody would vote for either snp or independence just because of careless or ignorant comments about Scotland made by members of the public. (although Nigel Farage made a silly remark re Hadrian's Wall IIRC) I still think that this type of thing and the similar things mentioned by ItsAllGoing have fed the appetite for independence (and therefore snp). You'd think recent events would have had an enlightening effect on rUK. The times they are a-changing. But the irritation still rankles with plenty of Scottish voters I bet and has a long lasting (sometimes subconscious) effect.

And there are (Scottish) posters in this thread who don't seem to realise that some of the language (and attributes) they ascribe as Scottish aren't used all across Scotland. Eg, siiiiiiiiigh's examples of the use of scottish dialect words as an expression of a 'sassy' (my word) attitude. I don't see that as peculiarly scottish. I'm sure it goes on in yorkshire, the Newcastle area, cornwall and other regions. Btw, I once heard someone from Glasgow explain to a friend of mine from a scottish island how to open a Terry's chocolate orange because she thought they wouldn't have chocolate oranges in the Scottish islands!!

One of the posters commented on the difference between her English relations learning about all the countries in UK, and her Scottish counterpart who had studied only Scottish history. That reminds me of something I'd forgotten about - DD's class did a topic called 'Scotland' which involved a 'Map of Scotland' with some of the islands missed off!

And if you feel misunderstood or under-represented in Westminster, remember that we recently had a government with a Scottish PM and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Just realised I have x-posted with OOAOML.

Really interesting point about the concept of a 'British' identity - or lack of it!

Two Scottish PMs, although the first kept it quiet.

What answers are you looking for choco?

The question in my OP has been answered.

Ok I'll give some more detail on what I meant by Scottish values & attitudes.

For a start it's not about being better or superior- quite a few of these are negative!

-small c conservatism esp socially eg gay rights, abortion, 'knowing your place', more draconian & archaic justice system- eg Cadder, Carloway getting put on backburner, more prisoners, lower rape conviction rates etc.

-economically frugal (stingy scot cliche) but gives more to charity and has more of a sense of equity. We are more likely to live in flats with communal 'closes' so more of a shared good mindset. 'Englishman's home is his castle', Scots aren't as enthusiastic about home ownership. Historically Scotland was a land of towns, England a land of villages.

-I read kate Fox's watching the English. I recognised a lot of it but some is distinctly English. Class is more of an English obsession. They are more in favour of the monarchy.

-other books which discuss Scots identity are blossom by Lesley Riddoch and the tears that made the Clyde by carol Craig if anyone's interested.

-I find Scots can be more defeatist whereas the English can have a bit more get up & go but I'm not sure if this is just a recent thing linked to reindustrialisation as Scots were historically very entrepreneurial.

-Scots (well west coast) culture is more macho & violent. There is a self destructiveness I don't see in the English- more drinking, smoking, obesity etc.

-I do think the English stereotype of the stuff upper lip holds true- I find Scots are more expressive.

-then there's sectarianism which afaik doesn't exist down south.

So different, yes definitely. Better? That's a matter for debate.

Re: what I said about visiting a theme park in the south has to be taken in the context of the wealth of people going there vs the people living in deprived communities I see here.
-no red heads! (There were loads in my high school!)
-more people with the 'Kate Middleton look' eg olive skin that tans in the sun rather than just turns red, brown eyes, chestnut hair. There weren't as many people with the 'Celtic' look of pale/pink/freckly skin with blue eyes and dark hair.
-everyone was slimmer!
-poor Scots men are shorter
-I see a lot of visible ill health in Scotland eg obesity, people in 40/50s walking with sticks, 'flushed' alcoholic faces, many looking older than their years
-the kids had clearer skin and whiter teeth

A lot of this is probably more to do with the rich/poor divide but the rich/poor divide isn't equal north & south of the border so they can't really be seperated.

I don't think it's "sad" OP that I have developed more of a Scottish identity over the years, it's just a reflection on a changed society.

Thank you for all that Jackie

I meant it was sad that you would no longer consider living anywhere in UK.

ScotsWhaHae Tue 28-Apr-15 09:08:06
Two Scottish PMs, although the first kept it quiet.
__

Or Blair didn't feel Scottish?

at 'Blair didn't feel Scottish'.

In the past hundred years there have been five Scottish pms:
Bonar Law
Ramsay MacDonald
Douglas-Home
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown

What does it matter whether someone gets the precise bane fir the Glasgow underground right or not? Do you think if you went to Munich and referred to the underground instead of the U Bahn, people would use it to lambast you? Or complain you weren't being German enough by saying Munich instead of Munchen?

And some of those words are slang even in Scots - someone from Orkney or Dingwall, or Edinburgh even wouldn't have a clue about some supposed fine distinction between mingung, houfin and boufin (I've ne er heard of the last two). In the wed of Scotland there's far more of a tendency to make up words fir effect - now if you want to really talk about the Scots language, mention some of the old farming terms - but many if them are shared with the north of England. "gimmer", "rig", or even something like "loup" for run.

Go to the Royal Highland Show if you want to see and hear real Scots being spoken - a small very urban part I the west of Scotland should not be taken as representative of Scotland as a whole.

JackieHarris I notice that too. I'm not going to comment on appearance, but what notice a lot about some Scottish men is their incredible arrogance - they think the have the right to a well paid was job, despite scant qualifications and track record, or they think they have the right to chat you up or fate you, even when they're unemployed, in their fifties and not blessed with hair, health or appeal. Ugh.

When Scotland was an independent country hundreds of years ago, it was known for intolerance, corruption, high taxation of its relatively miserable citizens and in-fighting. It was no eutopia. The Scottish state destroyed the once wealthy economy of Shetland by banning trade with the Hanseatic League and introducing punitive taxation, when it took it over from Denmark, as well as discouraging use of the native language, which is now lost.

*name for - I'm not good typing on a phone!

I think Scotland has changed since the 17th century, TheChandler!

Anyone who thinks it would be a utopia are a bit silly but I'd still prefer to live here, independent or not.

There are aspects of English society I strongly disagree with
-the pupils from a few public schools always pulling the strings
-the church's involvement in state education
-grammar/secondary modern schools
-the school application procedure
-the treatment of homeless people
-Uni fees
-the dominance of London
-the monarchy/aristocracy having so much influence
-leasehold housing
-gazumping
-the imperialist mindset that still exists
-that Tory politics are mainstream
-being able to tell a mother she can't breastfeed in public
-the anti Scottish xenophobia

Nothing could entice me to move there. Not now. (I nearly did some years ago)

Well, I'm sure it has, but some things change surprisingly little. when you think of the record of Scottish first ministers, its not great, is it. I agree that its good to have the perspective to look at both English and Scottish society and to compare them. I was really commenting on the thread above, which dared to stick its head above the parapet and make some
critical remarks about Scotland and the scots.

one positive thing I do notice about parts of England compared to Scotland now is planning. yes there are many parts of England which are covered in identikit modern housing estates and retail parks, but the main population centres of Scotland are absolutely surrounded by them. the planning is really awful - they build new roads with no pavements next to them, so you see people trudging alongside main roads, with nothing separating them from the traffic. is there really such a need for what is usually rather expensive houses and out of town retail parks and why is Scotland still building them at such a level when most planners have surely worked out by now that the market is saturated and shopping habits are moving away from that model.

'I find Scots are more expressive.'

hmmn, when I fly back to Scotland, its a rare flight that isn't interrupted by a whinging Scottish man. on the last one, a guy in his mid twenties was sitting in my seat, and wanted me to move so he could sit next to his friends and kicked off because I wouldn't get my bags down and move to the other end of the plane. the flight before that was interupted by what i can only describe as a maniac. have you ever been to an accident and emergency and not had it disrupted by a Scottish man whining and wailing about a simple procedure like having blood taken or a wound cleaned/

chandler IMO there's a fine line between enjoying couthy humour and bad manners sometimes! (I say this as someone who loves to use dialect words and phrases)

Jackie - IMO We have seem to have the best of both worlds: few of the problems you mention + the shared resources, expertise, defence etc of the whole of UK.

I share the annoyance of snp (and other) voters re the old boys' disproportionate success, governments seemingly craven attitude to big corporations, the 'super-rich' and banks etc, but IMO the best way to tackle that is to try to effect change for the whole of UK.

The Green party seems to share a lot of ground with snp - trident, fracking, more socialist in general; snp is not the only alternative to the big three parties.

x-posted!

so how does the Scottish government's obsession with ppi partnerships building inexplicably expensive projects and its support of certain favoured contractors, notably those with a connection to sir ian wood.

please excuse lack of capitals and punctuation - even at lunch break, I wont risk using work equipment to post.

the school mentioned above with the split of catholic and protestant pupils was built recently via such financing, as was another school even more recently 3 miles away. both have community sports facilities, which means two virtually new, unused 25m swimming pools within 3 miles of each other, kept open til 10pm each night. how on earth is that a good use of public funds/

There are plenty of public school ties pulling strings in Scottish life, when I worked at RBS there was a strong Gordonstoun influence in my division.

I was at RBS when George Mathewson, the strong Scottish Nationalist was there. He made massive changes to the bank, admittedly taking it out of a very bad time but then pushing it excessively into being the "biggest in the world" He was behind Fred Goodwin as was Alex Salmond - AS might now say that he could have saved the bank if he'd kept on working there but he's trying to rewrite history. He's on record as supporting Amro's disastrous takeover and offering any help the Scottish government could give.

The SNP are also happy to change policy for their donors - funny how bus re regulation disappeared and the coffers were then filled by Brian Souter, (who's business practices must some of the most immoral going).

The longer the Scottish government is around / the SNP has power the more stories will emerge of corruption. The institution and the party are no better than Westminster the 'old' parties it's just the history isn't there/ opportunities haven't arisen.

Community-use schools have been around a long time. I worked in mine in S6, in 1992. Great idea IMO.