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AIBU?

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Who is unreasonable and how can I be reasonable? Dress codes

156 replies

LegalEagels · 26/04/2015 14:24

I work for an international law firm in quite a large office. I manage two interns who are both excellent at their jobs and most probably will be offered training contracts at the end of their internships.

The issue here is: Everyone wears either suits etc or what you'd imagine to be professional gear, however, one of the interns turns up to work everyday in clothes better suited to nightclubs. I personally think she looks good and can carry it off (she's not exactly wearing a red leather catsuit) but I do admit that it's not entirely appropriate or the style the rest of the office adopts. I have no issue with what she wears, tbh she does a great job and it's my goal to help her become a qualified.

One of the managers from another department approached me earlier this week to ask me to talk to her about her appearance / attire. Our office doesn't have an exact policy on dress code but what is acceptable is generally understood. I know that others have gossiped about her choice of clothes. My main manager hasn't mentioned anything to me, but having said that he's generally away from the office so perhaps hasn't noticed or too busy with other things to take notice of an interns choice of clothes.

There is a very real risk that she won't be offered a training contract as it's not just me on the panel that will interview her. And indeed if she's bringing herself this negative attention chances are it looks unlikely.

Now, would it be unreasonable to say something to her? and how without being unreasonable myself? Or should I tell that other manager to keep his beak out? Even though he will most likely be on the panel.

OP posts:
Timri · 28/04/2015 13:56

Wow, is it even worth it at this point?

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 28/04/2015 14:54

Maybe not for this particular trainee contract, but certainly worth flagging for her future prospects, I would have thought.

fascicle · 28/04/2015 15:21

Are there any legal considerations for employee dress codes in your country, LegalEagels? Presumably you have to avoid direct/indirect discrimination. It is daft that your company does not have a written policy, whilst it's clear that there are unwritten rules and expectations. I'd give some thought to how you are going to communicate the dress code requirements to your intern. I think it is worth contacting your HR dept, even if you're not keen.

I know it won't directly apply, but for info here's the guidance from ACAS on dress codes in the workplace:

www.acas.org.uk/dresscode

MaidOfStars · 28/04/2015 15:36
MiscellaneousAssortment · 28/04/2015 16:50

I don't find it extraordinary in the slightest, don't know why people think an 'international' company is somehow held to a better standard or is a sign that sustems and processes should be watertight, it's really no guarantee!

Something similar happened to a triad of new starters in my company a while back. It's really easy for mutters and judgements to be made whilst no one feels responsibility for direct intervention. In fact so many problems can happen by handling issues directly that a culture of 'benign neglect' grows.

In an increasing number of organizations, pastoral management is separated from everyday working life, and therefore gets overlooked or neglected altogether. Consultants, freelancers and interns are likely to have no management or pastoral care whatsoever, nor are companies held responsible for them.

HR is often seen as a last resource and a way of getting rid of people or finding someone to blame. I'm this situation it's likely HR won't be involved even if from the outside of seems clear that they should be.

Good luck OP.

TheBoov · 28/04/2015 16:51

How did it go?

KoalaDownUnder · 29/04/2015 04:50

I don't find it extraordinary in the slightest, don't know why people think an 'international' company is somehow held to a better standard or is a sign that sustems and processes should be watertight, it's really no guarantee!

It's not because it's an 'international' company, it's because it's an international law firm. They tend to be very no-nonsense about such things, in my (direct) experience.

I would also like to know how the chat went, OP?

TheChandler · 29/04/2015 05:08

Surprised that youre asking this op. The "appropriate dress for the office talk" must be given to about half of all trainees surely? Isn't this one of the things a training contract is meant to iron out?

If you don't want to deal with it personally, have HR send round a memo in dress code to all trainees. If no omprovement, speak to her personal. Not difficult.

TheRestofmylifeiswaiting · 29/04/2015 07:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sisterofmercy · 29/04/2015 13:29

This link from Acas on having difficult conversations might also suffice: www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3799

Pity you're not in the UK as you could do with the training course.

InYearAdmissions · 29/04/2015 13:52

She's meant to be leaving at 6pm, in ur time 7pm (if ur in UK)

Where on earth has a time zone 1 hour earlier than the Uk?

I think it is v unreasonable that nothing has been said to her for 6 months. But at the same time if she is a clever as you say she cannot have failed to notice that she dresses differently to everyone else.

You need to be very careful with the wording you use in the meeting.

Are you sure there is no dress code, have you asked HR, it might just not be very well publicised. Even if it just say business dress...

JessieMcJessie · 29/04/2015 14:14

Good point InYear. According to Google, only the Cap Verde Islands, not known for their international law firm presence? I imagine OP is in mainland Europe and got the hour difference the wrong way round...

How did it go OP?

LegalEagels · 29/04/2015 14:53

It was very uneventful Jessie, Boov. Office is based in mainland Europe, without giving too much away think EU-focused law. She was very attentive nodded along then that was it. Conversation lasted about 15mins tops. She did thank me but it was all very matter-of-fact. Agree RestofMylife.. all the angst for 15mins of 'yup thanks, sure'

OP posts:
TheBoov · 29/04/2015 19:52

Oh that's a very traditionally dressed city. I worked there for some years ;). I did improve my personal presentation no end!
Hope it all works out for her.

LegalEagels · 29/04/2015 21:31

Boov does Euco or EP mean anything to you? If so then count me in Wink .I wouldn't say traditional though! Just everyone trying to figure it out...

OP posts:
TheChandler · 29/04/2015 21:49

Oh, I see very smartly dressed women in jeans in EP all the time, last week, leather trousers made a regular appearance in ECJ! But less usual I would have thought for lawyers in private firms.

To be fair to the OP, there is quite a trend for young female solicitors to wear quite clubby type clothing which seems a bit too informal, except that it is black - miniskirts are not unusual in court in some parts of the UK.

TheBoov · 29/04/2015 23:39

It's a while since I was there. There were NO smartly dressed women in jeans in them days.
I remember shopping for a bag on Avenue Louise one Saturday. I was childless with a good budget. As I was not wearing three inches of make up or heels I kept being fobbed off. I wasn't even allowed to touch the bags I wanted!
The lovely older man who owned an independent shop (none left now) suddenly appeared and took over. He realised I was a foreigner and might not actually be Satan because I was wearing casual trousers and - shock horror - no make-up. In minutes he found the 'perfect' bag (this is pre on-line shopping) and I coughed up vast amounts of cash. I still get pleasure from the looks of horror from the snotty staff.

LegalEagels · 30/04/2015 11:15

Chandler, leather trousers at the ECJ! I'm outraged on ur behalf! I was of the Ally McBeal era so a pencil skirt that was quite a few inches above the knee was somehow radical. tbh I couldn't give a shiny shit if u turned up in a bin liner as long as u did a stellar job.
Boov, it's not so much like that anymore as there are so many of us - I think now they turn their noses up at the ones that can't be bothered to attempt to speak the language. "He realised I was a foreigner and might not actually be satan" is going in my book of sentences that I must use one day!

OP posts:
MiscellaneousAssortment · 30/04/2015 11:57

Koala, I see, was putting emphasis on the international rather than the law bit :)

My experience of international (not law) companies is that size nor multinational spread is no indicator of a good office culture!

TheChandler · 30/04/2015 12:27

Chandler, leather trousers at the ECJ! I'm outraged on ur behalf! Yes, shiny oxblood red ones going up THE STAIRCASE! Bear in mind though they were worn with by a woman who looked like a model, teamed with a chic jacket and pearls - she carried them off.

flashbunny73 · 30/04/2015 15:01

You def need to tell her - you are doing her a favour. Also do you really want your company represented by dolly birds?? What kind of image will that give?
I used to do graduate interviews for a large multinational. 95% of graduates present themselves well at interview. But the odd one does not - one girl looked like she had not washed her hair for about 3 months and her clothes were about 2 sizes too tight. I know this is personal choice bla bla bla but when you have 5 jobs and 50 applicants you would have to be more than amazing if you are going to look like a mess / tart.
She is young and has plenty of nights out clubbing to dress up!

LegalEagels · 30/04/2015 16:05

flash, I already did! I've said above how po-faced and 'yes, thanks for letting me know' she was about it all. She really doesn't give a flying, neither do I but I have had the conversation. There's not much else I can do now.
In your position: potentially 5 jobs and 50 applicants I'd totally agree with you, they'd have to be more than amazing.

OP posts:
Emo76 · 01/05/2015 09:11

Legal , what's she wearing today?!

thetroubleis · 01/05/2015 10:22

Dolly birds? Tart? Hmm

fascicle · 01/05/2015 10:40

What thetroubleis said.