Who is unreasonable and how can I be reasonable? Dress codes

[LegalEagels]

I work for an international law firm in quite a large office. I manage two interns who are both excellent at their jobs and most probably will be offered training contracts at the end of their internships.

The issue here is: Everyone wears either suits etc or what you'd imagine to be professional gear, however, one of the interns turns up to work everyday in clothes better suited to nightclubs. I personally think she looks good and can carry it off (she's not exactly wearing a red leather catsuit) but I do admit that it's not entirely appropriate or the style the rest of the office adopts. I have no issue with what she wears, tbh she does a great job and it's my goal to help her become a qualified.

One of the managers from another department approached me earlier this week to ask me to talk to her about her appearance / attire. Our office doesn't have an exact policy on dress code but what is acceptable is generally understood. I know that others have gossiped about her choice of clothes. My main manager hasn't mentioned anything to me, but having said that he's generally away from the office so perhaps hasn't noticed or too busy with other things to take notice of an interns choice of clothes.

There is a very real risk that she won't be offered a training contract as it's not just me on the panel that will interview her. And indeed if she's bringing herself this negative attention chances are it looks unlikely.

Now, would it be unreasonable to say something to her? and how without being unreasonable myself? Or should I tell that other manager to keep his beak out? Even though he will most likely be on the panel.

Well if she is using and flaunting her physical attributes to get the job rather then her brains then she has just plummeted in my estimation of her. Manipulation is never an attractive quality and breeds resentment within a group dynamic, if she continues to do this and gets the job there will be mutterings of her not obtaining the job on the basis of her ability but on the basis of her physical attributes and that will not only undermine her but those who gave her the job.

As an intern is it possible that she can't afford a "professional" wardrobe until she starts earning properly? Is she just wearing the "smartest" stuff she had as a student?

Come on love, woman up!

Go for a coffee or a drink after work - somewhere out of the office sit her down and just say it: X, I need to talk to you about what you wear to work. Personally I think you look fabulous but you must have noticed there's quite a conservative culture in our office when it comes to work wear and some of the things you wear fall outside of what is generally deemed to be acceptable. Now you know you have interviews coming up for the traineeship and I think you have the right attitude, brain and competence to do the job and I want you to have the best opportunity possible which is why I'm telling you this. To give you some specific examples: skirts and dresses should not be much shorter than just above the knee; necklines should avoid showing too much cleavage and a scarf or statement necklace is a good way to draw the eye; patent, sky-scraper heels are best kept for the weekend.

When recruiting we try not to judge what people are wearing but when we have women turning up to interview in skirts that skim bottoms or what my mother would call "stripper shoes" it does get noticed. One woman I was recruiting with the other week told me she takes the girls to the mall and points out "acceptable" and "unacceptable" clothes to them. She also won't permit them to wear flats because it marks them out as a junior.

So you're asking more how to talk to her about this situation, is that it?

In which case I'd start by saying "you've probably noticed that most people here dress in a more conservative fashion than you do. While I don't mind what you wear in the slightest, and it is your prerogative to wear what you choose to, other people have noticed and there have been some adverse comments. This may affect your chances of getting your trainee contract here; of course it's entirely up to you what you do about this, but do be aware that your choice may prevent you from staying here long term, if that's what you wanted to do"

Or some variation of that.

I should make it clear that we don't discriminate based on what they're wearing but we do make a mental note to have "the chat" when they start.

grovel professional does not mean £££, it means not walking around with your tits or arse hanging out and this is perfectly possible on a budget.

Moving on up

Blimey, glad I don't work at your firm - wear heels for a couple of hours and I'm limping worse for a week. Guess it's a good job I'm as likely to be the one giving the chat...

This shouldn't be a problem. You can be entirely bland about asking for a word and saying that you have been made aware that her dress code has been commented on and that it might hamper her chances - that her dress style is on the very casual end of what is deemed acceptable in the office (nicely bland way of putting it) and she needs to look more in keeping with the office 'style'. You can say that you'd advise that she should take a look around and kit herself out with a few more conservative pieces along the lines of: suit type skirts/dresses, plain blouses, neutral colours. Basically more boring!

There's nothing judgmental or offensive in saying that. Basically, there is a uniform - for both sexes - and she isn't really wearing it at the mo and that's going to make her look as if she's not as serious a candidate.

I suspect the issue is that she still mentally considers herself to be a student rather than a lawyer to be. Either that or she has decided that this firm really isn't for her and as such she isn't prepared to fit in.

I wear flats to work nocool because I have a sciatica. But I am a contractor and not a junior so perhaps that's ok?

She did say just a tiny heel was acceptable.

I'm surprised she's not smart enough to pick up on this herself....in that case perhaps it's a strategy of hers

I actually agree that telling a 21 year old grad in a serious trainee role with client exposure not to wear flats or ballet pumps because it tends to make people take you less seriously is good advice.

If I didn't have sciatica I would probably still wear flats because it makes me seem much less intimidating as an assessor. But I'm not telling my client that!

I think the reason it's worrying me now is that I see that it's a real prospect that she won't be taken on by the firm. I used to think the gossipers were jealous as some of the things she wears only look good on certain type of build and she definitely could carry it off.

I already noticed that some people were not taking her seriously but I thought that this was more to do with her status as 'intern' but now I know without doubt that it's to do with her clothes. FWIW the other intern dresses in a very demure / conservative way - they are both the same level, have similarish backgrounds but the demure intern is spoken to / consulted by a lot of the other departments. If this is some sort of strategy she had in mind to 'seduce' the panel then it's working very much against her.

She may be good at research and an efficient bundler but if she is not picking up on dress code then she probably does lack the common sense to be a truly excellent lawyer. You sound a bit too in love with her to be honest- are you new at managing interns/juniors?

You must speak to her, what a shame it would be if she missed out because of this! I'd go with what Thumbwitches said. Make it clear that there's a very real chance of her not being taken on if she doesn't conform to an extent.

Just say to her "you look good and have fabulous style but there's an element of playing the game. A lot of people aren't creative enough to look past the end of their nose and only see what's in front of them. Be on the safe side, make sure they're only focussing on your brains and then when you've proved yourself you'll have more flexibility. Yeah I know it's crappy having to dress to suit others but sometimes just have to suck it up" or something along those lines.

Tis rubbish, but if that's the way the company or industry is you need to have a damn strong cv before you can start shaking it up.

Intelligence is not the same thing as wisdom. She may be very bright and capable, but she is not wise enough to either clock the unspoken dress code, or she has noticed it but thinks it doesn't/shouldn't apply to her. Perhaps you could also suggest to HR that as there is a dress code at work, they should formalise it with a written version, to help avoid this sort of issue.

You have to talk to her. She is damaging her prospects. You are managing her internship and that means her overall development as well as the more obvious things.

You've had some good suggestions.

As it's a personal development thing, I'd take an approach that gets her to think about it herself, and also lets you see if she's unaware, or rebelling. Book a meeting to discuss the upcoming interviews. Ask her how she thinks she will do or if there is any area she maybe isn't reaching the firm's expectations. If she says 'no' then you know she's unaware and you can pretty much just give her the run through on what is expected of staff members when it comes to clothing and that these things are important to pick up on, and it can have a negative effect on your career if you don't.

If she says 'oh yes well I don't dress like everyone else and I know some people don't like that, but I think dress codes are stupid and I don't see why my clothes effect how good I am at my job blah blah' you've got a harder job on your hands. She needs to be warned that whatever her personal feelings are, the people paying her salary get to make the rules about the firm, not her, and deliberately 'not playing the game' is going to negatively impact on her career wherever she is working. And advise her that her principles here may result in her not being offered a place.

And if it's the second situation, you could tell her that trying to change the system from within only works when you are in a position of power, as a junior it's just career suicide. If she is against dress codes, fair enough, but she has to wait a few years until she advances and then she can do something about it. No firms let the juniors set the rules.

I'm going to schedule a meeting with her after work this coming week. Thanks for all your suggestions on how to have the conversation. I wouldn't be so bothered if this is all she had going for her but the fact is she is more than capable.

You sound a bit too in love with her to be honest- are you new at managing interns/juniors? No, I'm not in love with her. And she's not the first intern I've managed in my career so far. She just appears to not see the wood for the trees. And I never made it by showing off my tits so I don't see why the younger generation should start doing so now.

It may be that people in the firm either consciously or subconsciously are attributing motivation or characteristics to her dress which could be damaging:

A lack of judgement or perception because she hasn't caught on to the culture.

A "fuck you" or subversive attitude by refusing to conform to the culture.

A lack of credibility because she prioritises her look over fitting in with the team/being seen to be credible.

I'm not saying it's definitely happening or that it's right, just that it does happen and the smart thing to do when your starting out is to conform to the norms of the firm. There is plenty of time to blaze a trail once you are established.

I was not suggesting you were actually in love with her OP! I meant that you appear to be so dazzled by her capabilities in some areas that you are blind to her faults.

I wouldn't tell her that others have been talking about the way she dresses. Nobody wants to hear that. Just tell her what you think - if she rebels against that, maybe that is the time to tell her what others have said.

And certainly tell her that the other interns are being treated differently due to the way they dress - she needs to cop on to that.

A good piece of advice is "dress for the job you want not the job you have" so tell her to look at the women whose job she would like to be doing in x years time and adopt a similar style.

I've worked in casual places and very formal.
A junior in the City office I worked in was simply told one morning to go out and buy some more suitable shoes before coming back into the office. He was wearing brown shoes with a black suit. He's no longer a junior.

I now work in a sector where jeans are more common than suits - but looking at the people in senior positions it's suits all the way. Were I to go for promotion I would definitely begin to wear more formal clothes, though I'd have to do the transformation gradually or colleagues would think I was going to an awful lot of funerals .....

Ah! I get where your coming from then Jessie

I just can't get my head around it. I keep on mentioning that she knows her shit so doesn't need to 'seduce' anyone and even so, in that attire no-one takes her seriously. So I can't really work out if it is a strategy (which is obviously backfiring) or if she genuinely doesn't get it. I know she wants the contract - it's all she speaks about.
Her interview will involve an assessment and a panel interview. I know she will sail through the assessment but at the interview she will struggle as she's facing people who are very conservative and have taken issue with her dress sense. She's only new to this 'corporate' life but the interviewers will catch her out at any given opportunity. I can see it already.

As her manager I only cared about the work she produced which was actually quite competent. But whilst the other intern will perform great and already has been accredited by other departments this intern hasn't. If only she wore something that didn't show her underwear! I'm a little bit torn over the discussion but it needs to be had. I'll do it and if she chooses to continue to dress like she's off out then it was her choice. I feel very responsible for the team I manage - including these two interns.