Who is unreasonable and how can I be reasonable? Dress codes

[LegalEagels]

I work for an international law firm in quite a large office. I manage two interns who are both excellent at their jobs and most probably will be offered training contracts at the end of their internships.

The issue here is: Everyone wears either suits etc or what you'd imagine to be professional gear, however, one of the interns turns up to work everyday in clothes better suited to nightclubs. I personally think she looks good and can carry it off (she's not exactly wearing a red leather catsuit) but I do admit that it's not entirely appropriate or the style the rest of the office adopts. I have no issue with what she wears, tbh she does a great job and it's my goal to help her become a qualified.

One of the managers from another department approached me earlier this week to ask me to talk to her about her appearance / attire. Our office doesn't have an exact policy on dress code but what is acceptable is generally understood. I know that others have gossiped about her choice of clothes. My main manager hasn't mentioned anything to me, but having said that he's generally away from the office so perhaps hasn't noticed or too busy with other things to take notice of an interns choice of clothes.

There is a very real risk that she won't be offered a training contract as it's not just me on the panel that will interview her. And indeed if she's bringing herself this negative attention chances are it looks unlikely.

Now, would it be unreasonable to say something to her? and how without being unreasonable myself? Or should I tell that other manager to keep his beak out? Even though he will most likely be on the panel.

I'm another who doesn't understand why you wouldn't have this conversation - and indeed why you haven't already had it

FFs if you could see her underwear why didnt you SAY something then?! It's part of your job as her manager and I feel a bit cross that you haven't been proactive about dealing with this and that you have done her a dis-service.

If she made a mistake in any other aspect of her work (eg being too familiar with clients in written communication or making a billing error) you would say something so why not this?

I think you need to reevaluate what your responsibilities are towards inexperienced staff.

Wait, just saw your update - what exactly is she wearing?! And why have you let it slide this long??

If she turns up in a black suit tomorrow you'll know she's a mumsnetter

Good luck, sounds a sensible approach. Inform then stand back but at least you have done what you can.

Er bit harsh, this is the sort of job where generally people know to dress appropriately and this kind of conversation is rare

MovingOn I'm not always with her. She works for me yes but she works in another area of the building. I'm quite senior so I don't spend all my time policing the interns. In my experience a lot the interns have 'played along'. I only noticed when I heard the gossip! That's why it's taken me this long. I wanted to make my own observations and now know that despite her capabilities her underwear is visible and at that her dresses cling to her body like a second skin. You are very right as if she'd made a mistake with billing, clients or documentation I'd have taken her to task, but that is part of my job. I didn't think an interns dress would cause a whole office to go into meltdown!

Tobysmum77 I hope she is a mumsnetter and she does turn up tomorrow with a black suit!

toby'smum, it's also the sort of job where you really, really can't walk around the office with underwear showing.

I work in precisely the same environment as the OP, and I can guarantee that within a day or two, someone would have had words with her. Probably HR, actually.

Who does 'police' the interns on a daily basis, then, OP?

They're interns for a reason, someone must work closely with them. That person, and/or HR, has fallen down in their job.

I've had this conversation more times than hot dinners - especially with Millennials

I always talk about getting noticed for your work and not your clothes - the old "dress for the job you want not the job you have" - and the big one .... Reputation

Reputation is like virginity - once it's gone, it's never coming back

People want to beleive that it doesn't matter and they should be judged purely on work output - but in the real world, it doesn't happen - look at any media outlet at all

So I talk about building a strong foundation to their careers and cornerstones of that foundation are reputation, integrity, ability, and plain hard work

Seeing your underwear kind of undermines all that

Koala Their 'manager' isn't really a manager but a sort of manager cum HR officer. She has mentioned it. But never to me. I only picked up on it when I was privy to some office gossip. A great deal of my communications with the interns is via e-mail so I couldn't tell you if they were wearing a ski suit or a bikini. I assign them work and what they provide is great so I know they are very talented but now I've realised that intern 2 might not be taken on due to her dress sense. When I say underwear I mean if she bends over, the others will talk about it at lunch, intact it will be the talk of the week! I didn't mean that she's just wearing her underwear.

I want her to be professional but I also realise that things today aren't the same when I was joining the workforce. So the conversation I have with her needs to reflect that. I'm quite a few levels senior to her but when I hear others discussing her, I notice they don't discuss her work (or the fantastic legal argument she came up with), they discuss her dress!

LadyCybilCrawley did you do the same as I'm intending... take her out for a drink after work and tell her? What was your approach.

Okay...all sounds very unprofessional for an 'international law firm' (No actual HR person? And the interns aren't managed face-to-face on a daily basis by an actual lawyer?). Anyway, good luck with it!

No drinks after work - either group initial discussion with new hires and if that doesn't stick, one on one meeting in work hours - I take the "it's your choice" approach - how do you think you are currently viewed? How do you think how you dress reflects on how you are viewed? How do you want to be viewed ? this is how you are currently viewed - what you do about it is up to you

You see Koala There's a difference between trainees (with contracts) and interns. The former have two lawyers from different departments to manage them plus a contract, and a deal with HR if they should feel the need. They also get to rotate between departments.

Interns on the other hand don't have any of that. They have quite a raw deal which is why a lot of them play ball. I tend to look out for them more because I know that in the eyes of the firm they are 'disposable.'

It was never easy for me, and I was also once a terrified intern so I tend to step in where I can. The reason for this thread was because I knew one of those interns would be fine but the other would be roasted if she didn't get herself (and cupboard) together.

Infact I'd even go so far as to say the problem is that we are too professional. HR is a last resort.

Yes I thought the same Koala - really not the best practice by quite some way!

I can't help this feeling I have that we're being used as a data source for an article. Probably because the set up alluded to just doesn't ring true. I work with a lot of senior people in professional services and not a single one when confronted with someone working in the office with underwear visible would hesitate to say "Your underwear is showing. That's not appropriate in the workplace please come to work dressed appropriately tomorrow" or just send them straight home to change.

None of them would delegate the task to HR either. They're senior managers so they would just manage.

MovingOn I can assure you not and would welcome you to report the thread if you are in doubt.

For those of you who think I should not have bigged up my colleague for using her assets. As I said I thought she was dressed appropriately just a bit differently and she happened to be built like Jessica Rabbit. I thought she looked fab. She quite rightly pointed out that the problem was surely not hers but the men's. I agreed. She quite rightly pointed out that the most sensible solution was not to expect her to cover up, but to expect that her male colleagues and clients should not get distracted by a hint of cleavage and a fab set of pins. I agreed but pointed out this was not going to happen any time soon and that unless she covered up she would be assuming the risk and there would be no recourse. She said this was unfair and again I agreed. Given that she had done nothing wrong( I never thought she tried to use her looks to her advantage). Given that her logic was sound. I think her response was the only smart move left. Play the mysogynist fuckers at their own game and win. That earned my respect.

Just point it out in a polite way. It's really not too difficult.

I had it pointed out to me. I wasn't dressing smart enough - black trousers /shirts and jumpers over the too. Didn't convey the image the firm wanted me to represent.

So I bought the conservative but smart wardrobe and carried on. I think it's a shame to have gone on too long to be office gossip.

Say how she needs to be perceived for her intellect which is clearly evident in her work, and she needs to present this image via her wardrobe too.

I'm sure she's asked for advice re the TC and you could perhaps discuss it from this perspective. so If this is the only piece of advice you've had to give her then she's doing very well indeed!

Another struggling with what exactly the big deal is here: clothes inappropriate = immediate word advising not to wear said outfit again.

This can't be the first time you've had this "dilemma" surely?!

I know where you are coming from. it's hard to know how to broach the subject (in the absence of a written dress code or uniform) without it possibly being interpreted as "unsisterly". Is there any way you can take her for a coffee and discuss it, rather than in a formal meeting room. Be warned, she may take it badly, though if she does then perhaps she's not the colleague you thought she was. I would concentrate on "perception" and emphasise that you are mentioning it because you are rooting for her to get a training contract and would hate to see her fail for the wrong reasons.

I think your furthe updates have mad things clearer. I'd have an informal private chat during office hours and be pretty matter of fact about it. Her dress is inappropriate, it may hinder her career progression within the company. That's all you need to say, you owe her that much really.

Oh I'd also maybe point out that your bringing this up is nothing to do with you as a female that she may misconstrue as bitterness, but just about being professional and putting herself forward as wanting to be a representative of the company.

Had this convo a few times after I noticed the females and in a couple of cases males not being taken seriously.

It's not an easy conversation and often the person isn't dressing well because they can't afford to rather than trying to maximize their assets. I am straight about that because there are plenty of us in the office who have a spare outfit or two that we are happy to give to someone who needs it or a budget that can cover the cost of us giving the person a $300-500 gift card to banana republic depending on how badly they need help and what others hand down.

Could you maybe link to something typical she might wear to work? I don't mean an exact copy, but it might make it easier for us to help you wording it.

I would assume she is wearing something she saw in a magazine as appropriate workwear for an office when in actual fact the only office you could wear that outfit to is said magazine office. Just because you saw it in vogue/Elle/Marie Claire/Instyle doesn't mean it's appropriate, especially if getting a cheaper version where the fabric is thin and shows everything.

I will have the convo but if I'm being honest I know that i'm trying to find the middle ground between being a lawyer and a good mentor. The thing is, she is very competent and she knows that, so if all of a sudden she wasn't offered a contract but the other intern was then I'd find myself embroiled in an employment dispute. So I need to tackle it while I can.

PastPerfect It really is the first time! Like I said, most interns just play the game, and if not then it was because they discovered working in Law was not for them.

Poppy I'll search now and post the link/pics. Just bear in mind that in our office a red scarf is something quite outrageous!