Who is unreasonable and how can I be reasonable? Dress codes

[LegalEagels]

I work for an international law firm in quite a large office. I manage two interns who are both excellent at their jobs and most probably will be offered training contracts at the end of their internships.

The issue here is: Everyone wears either suits etc or what you'd imagine to be professional gear, however, one of the interns turns up to work everyday in clothes better suited to nightclubs. I personally think she looks good and can carry it off (she's not exactly wearing a red leather catsuit) but I do admit that it's not entirely appropriate or the style the rest of the office adopts. I have no issue with what she wears, tbh she does a great job and it's my goal to help her become a qualified.

One of the managers from another department approached me earlier this week to ask me to talk to her about her appearance / attire. Our office doesn't have an exact policy on dress code but what is acceptable is generally understood. I know that others have gossiped about her choice of clothes. My main manager hasn't mentioned anything to me, but having said that he's generally away from the office so perhaps hasn't noticed or too busy with other things to take notice of an interns choice of clothes.

There is a very real risk that she won't be offered a training contract as it's not just me on the panel that will interview her. And indeed if she's bringing herself this negative attention chances are it looks unlikely.

Now, would it be unreasonable to say something to her? and how without being unreasonable myself? Or should I tell that other manager to keep his beak out? Even though he will most likely be on the panel.

Just have the conversation
Your starting to make too much of it
"Don't show your smalls" is a short conversation

You're not your - arg

how on earth wouldnt you just have the conversation? would you be pussy footing around if she had BO?

(Wo)man up and get on with it

One woman I was recruiting with the other week told me she takes the girls to the mall and points out "acceptable" and "unacceptable" clothes to them. She also won't permit them to wear flats because it marks them out as a junior.

I take it that the 'boys' are also told to wear something that is extremely uncomfortable to the point of being deleterious to health because of the way it makes them look?

I think this is an HR issue and you should ask your HR department for advice before speaking to anyone about their choice of dress. This has happened before where I used to work (in banking, not law).

An international law firm doesn't have a dress code? Seriously, why not? Your HR sound not very on the ball tbh.

Is she dressing to use her body as a 'sales tool' or is she just not 'getting it' re inappropriate work wear? Either way get HR to get off their bum and write a paragraph of a dress code into the new starter pack and code of conduct on your intranet and then speak to her.

No Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g because that's not what she does with the girls in the first place. They are not told to wear high heels, just not ballet flats or similar like I wear They could wear brogues like the boys if they want :)

Are you in the UK? Most of the top international law firms in the UK tend to have an introduction at the beginning of vac schemes to discuss things like dress/behaviour etc - does your firm offer anything like this?

Why do you think you would have an employment dispute on your hands if she's not offered the job (unless you're not in the UK and the vac schemes/interns set up is different). Anyway, if that's really what you think they surely you must say something to her? As others have said a short conversation such as "What you wear might not be considered appropraite by others". I really can't see that it's a big deal and have had lots of similar conversations with vac schemers, trainees and secretaries.

The next thing I would do is ensure that there is some form of dress code in place to avoid all of this - am amazed you don't have one at all (again, are you in the UK?).

Really, it's no biggie and surprised you're over thinking it.

I would deffo go with the comment suggested at yest at 4.19....

I've been the subject of this talk previously - 'dressing too creativily'

Also latterly given the talk myself to new starters, dressed as if they're attending a night club... (Think sparkly tops and too short skirt! )

Would say summat about:
Her very real ability..

I had -' fwiw I really like your style, but x profession is very Conservative.
Then would deffo focus on... Impact it WILL have on her chances...

Difficulty with being taken seriously/having a professional reputatiom, as people are remembering something other than her ability!

Then, her choice if she chooses to continue.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have it written down in black and white somewhere what people are meant to wear. "Unwritten rules" are never a good idea IME!

To be honest, I think you're a bit unreasonable to have not already had the conversation. You're the interns' manager, and dealing with this kind of thing comes under that role.

I don't really see it as a big deal. Take the girl for coffee, and just tell her...

"I think you're doing really well, you're good at you're job, this is a bit awkward, I think you look great, but you got to tone your clothes..."

Commiserate with the girl over the fuddy duddy views but guide her in the right direction.

Slightly awkward conversations with junior staff are part and parcel of a being a manager, mentor etc. Don't have loud conversations with your girlfriend/boyfriend on the phone, don't push off for coffee with your pal in the next floor every day, roll down your sleeves and cover the tattoos when you see certain clients...no big deal!

Every day you let this go by you are undermining her chances.
You work in a top law firm, how hard can it be to be clear and direct?
Just do it!

Just tell her straight that a senior colleague has asked you to have a word because her chosen dress code is not reflective of the image the company likes to portray. Tell her that it undermines her significant talent and that you are very concerned it will prevent her from getting a training contract. Reassure her that this is the only issue that you can see that would prevent her from getting a TC, but leave her in no doubt that it is significant. Job done.

I think this is fairly standard. For example, nursing and medical students are informed that if they are wearing 'day clothes', they must be of a style that, if they were to perform CPR on a patient (kneeling, on all fours, over the patient, pushing down on their chest), they wouldn't be showing underwear or cleavage. So in practice, that means wearing higher necklines, longer and more generous blouses/tops/shirts, skirts that go almost to the knee and trousers that don't slip down to reveal the crease of your backside.

It's not just all the things mentioned, her work will be overlooked and she will not be taken seriously. Friend did a similar thing and came to be know as the dizzy blonde - purely on her body skimming outfits. It took her 2 years to change people perceptions and be taken serious which put her career back

Is it going to be between her and the other intern who gets the training contract? If so, to be honest it sounds like the other one already has it in the bag.

I do think, however, that this whole dress code thing is a pity. What is viewed as smart business dress for women is, in my experience, at best uncomfortable, and I work much more productively if I am comfortable. Fortunately I've reached a level of seniority in a rather less formal organisation and can dress comfortably, and I have no problem with more junior staff doing likewise if they are doing their jobs properly.

YWNBU to have a word with her about it as it'll be in her best interests to know what's going on and you have her best interests at heart.

However I agree with Icimoi though - I think dress codes are bollocks. I don't wear skimpy stuff as it's not my style but I am a jeans-and-converse type of dresser and it really pisses me off that people think I am less good at my job because I don't come to work wearing a pencil skirt and heels! There is no dress code where I work so they can't say anything to me but I know my manager would prefer it if I wore a suit.

I sit behind a desk all day with absolutely no contact with external clients/visitors so I don't see why I should be expected to come in wearing an uncomfortable suit.

If there is a question of only ONE of them getting the contract, why not let the girl who worked this out for herself have the bigger chance by NOT saying anything to Ms skimpyoutfits?

If they are both equally able, one of them showing she can take social cues and be perceptive of her surroundings is perhaps a better fit with the company than the girl who is less perceptive or cares less?

legaleagles how could there be an employment dispute if she wasn't offered a contract?

I've found it a regular issue with junior staff members in the profession. She clearly isn't picking up on it and so you do need to say something. Several times I've had to have conversations with junior women about the length of skirt or amount of cleavage on show. It is also relevant that you're in a job where even as a trainee you are charged to clients at and so it is very important to look the part.

I do get that it is harder for women as to where the lines are, whereas for men it is clear you're in a shirt, suit and tie. But that is part of corporate life I'm afraid. And as for "comfort", it doesn't sound like the issue is that she is turning up in a track suit, she is wearing clothes that are too skimpy.

OP one thing I've used sometimes is the phrase "dress for the job you want, not the job you have". So with the trainees encouraging them to look at what the qualified lawyers were wearing and whether what they were wearing would blend in with that (rather than being at the periphery) was a way of making them think through what to wear. I know this is an uncomfortable area and no one really wants to have to have these conversations but you're doing her a disservice if you leave it.

Say something. When I was young? The head clerk at the chambers where my then boyfriend was doing a pupil age asked me to have a word about not only his attire, shoes etc but also his personal hygiene, teeth and hair. He is now v v successful (and well turned out and clean!).

You could broach the subject using reference to the PIE model of employability - the model says that your potential for promotion relies (rather sadly) on 10% in terms of your performance in your day to day duties, 30% on your image amongst colleagues, peers and clients and 60% on your exposure. You could use this as a way to explain while her performance is great, she also needs to give consideration to her image and exposure in the company as training contract interviews approach...

www.mondofrank.com/pie/

mrsde, it's not UK though not a very dissimilar process. The TC isn't a competition between the two. In effect we take on interns with an implicit view to keep them on after their internship. The interviews & assessment is often more of a formality iyswim so unless someone hasn't learnt a thing in 6 months or just been a total calamity then there's no reason for them to not do well as of course they'd have come across and worked with most of the panel at that point. tbh the initial recruiting process is often harder so we already know from the get-go that we want to hire them. Emo, not necessarily an unemployment dispute as she's not technically employed.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but at least you will be forewarned for the next time you have interns , a conversation on their first day about the standards of dress required should prevent this happening again. Equally the first time someone turns up in inappropriate attire is the time to say something.

I'm still a bit doubtful of her level of perceptive abilities as she appears not to have noticed/worked it out for herself that her dress sense is not in tune with others. Has she not realised that the equally able but more conservatively dressed intern is thought of more highly and wondered to herself why that might be the case? Shows a lack of awareness of her surroundings which is surprising if she is otherwise so on the ball.

There is a superb thread in Style and Beauty at the moment about someone moving to an east-coast US office - someone was very blunt and honest about what is required (grey, grey, black, grey, big rocks and nude pantyhose) (pantyhose! NEVER not funny) that you might find very useful to direct your conversation. Also fascinating for all as has blown up contrast between US corporate (wear grey. always have nails and hair done) and quite a lot of more bohemian british ladies (wear boden or fluorescent topshop tutu to work! no nails done, no hair, or perhaps pink streak and three-week-old chipped varnish.) Who is right? Neither, but you must sadly conform sometimes to the social group you're trying to gain admittance to.

If it helps I've had this conversation done to me twice - once in a v negative way (working in the states, 22, in reasonably casual but still conservative environment and GASP showed small section of midriff as am very tall and tops come up short on me. Bizarrely apparently acceptable to wear quite short shorts and skirts there, but showing midriff is akin to flashing your boobs at someone.) Was faintly awkward as was more of a cultural thing, but was very grateful for it. Second time was v relaxed and at a time when my career was fast tracking and my mentor said 'Hey babe, your clothes are great but don't dress like your peers, dress like you want to be on the board/trusted with high-level external meetings.' Great advice, very grateful for it again. Since then have had many people comment on how well-turned out and professional I look. It's all good.

She is at an international law firm for fucks sake. Anyone with half a brain should be able to figure out that equals conservative dress code. And if not in advance, then especially on the first day when they look around and see everyone else - even their peers - in suits.

The mind boggles.

OP - Frankly I would be straight with her. Tell her that the way she dresses will most likely impact people's perception of her during interviews. Remind her that she is working at a law firm now - she isn't a student.

Separately, speak to HR and ask them to draw up a formalised dress code. The fact they haven't done so thus far is sheer lazyness. If there are such strong expectations on dress code, then these need to be laid out.