Who is BU over photos of kids?

[slithytove]

My sister takes a lot of photos of my kids, proper ones on film.

I asked her today if I could copy her negatives so I could have the photos too.

She said no, they were her property and special to her and she didn't just want to share them.

All true and fair I guess, but I feel a bit sad actually that there are pics I can't own (some have me in) or potentially even see. Some of these are photos I've asked her to take when my camera (digital) has been out of use.

My really petty side wants to prevent her taking photos of me and my children if she isn't willing to let me pay for a copy of the pics.

I feel a bit shit, who is bu?

Winter, I don't have an issue with other people having images of my family. I have an issue with other people having images of me and my family that a) I dont b) I'm not allowed to see and c) I'm not allowed to have even when I asked for them to be taken.

On a point of interest, surely my image IS my own, not hers? She has no right to take photos of me without my permission?

And with all due respect, I can stop her taking photos for the most part. My children are not a photography session.

I would understand the joy if they were particularly close, but they aren't. They are infants she has seen maybe 20 times in their lives. And I don't understand it, because for me the joy in photographs is not just capturing the moment, but sharing it with others who will find joy in it. My sister clearly doesn't have the same feelings so I struggle to understand it.

Diddl - I'm not that bothered about seeing her, I find her difficult a lot of the time though I have made an effort in the past.

I still feel very angry and confused about some of the stuff she said through the course of our argument, especially the I hate her rubbish, so am holding off on replying until I can figure out what to say. It's clearly about more than just photos.

On a point of interest, surely my image IS my own, not hers? She has no right to take photos of me without my permission?

No - copyright in a photograph remains with the taker of the photograph and not the subject of the photograph. Sounds somewhat counterintuitive but there it is.

As regards getting 'permission' to take photographs - well, no, there isn't generally a requirement for that. Exceptions may be where extreme persistent photography amounts to harassment or breach of privacy. Bit I don't think you're going as far as claiming your sister is doing that - well, I don't think you are...

Not copyright, but my image. The use of my image etc. I get that private is one thing but it's my image not to be used elsewhere surely! Even when it's the photographers copyright.

And what is she going to do, run after me if I turn away or move the children? Because I don't want to give permission. I'll just not invite her over if that's what it comes to.

Photographs belong to the photographer not the subject.

I'm an aunt, no kids of my own -never will have, and I sometimes get into my head special things I'd like to do for the kids, and I guess presenting them with an album of photos at 18 or something could come under that, but at the end of the day if my siblings say no then that's what goes and I just have to live with my disappointment. I can't imagine denying my sister copies of photos I took, especially at her request etc.

However you said something about her resenting your parents giving her a decent upbringing which maybe suggests a more complex family dynamic going on with you.

This thread is so bizarre. Both her refusal to give you the photos, and your insistence on having them.

OP - in relation to your last question, the answer is still no (from a legal perspective) - ie yes, your sister has the copyright in the photos but, no, you cannot restrict her using them.

Though there are exceptions - eg a commissioned wedding photographer, who may still own the copyright in the pictures, can't publish them.

Yes, sure, you could go the route of saying 'my home, my rules, - ie that the price of admission to your home is no photography / photography with conditions attached to it.

Ok. As a hypothetical question, I think we've established that she is most definitely bu to take pics of your kids that you can't share. It's a bit weird. But there is a WAAAY bigger picture here of you and your sis (and it sounds pretty much 50/50, ie you are both engaging in this) being locked into some very strange decades-long battle, and the photography thing is just a weapon you are using against each other. It won't keep going if you simply step back. You don't need these photos (nice as it would be to have them) and their sheer existence can't harm you or your kids. So just let her crack on, never mention it again and stop letting it provide a vehicle for this weird back-and-forth of hostilities between the two of you.

This bit spoke volumes to me i'll just not invite her over, if that's what it comes to - while most of us can understand why you want the damn photos, no photos in the world are worth losing a sister nor for your children an aunt. It sounds like you are both looking for something to fall out about - I think you need to try just dropping this one to be honest.

No the subject doesn't own them, as proven when poor Brooke Shields tried to get those photos of her as a nude ten year old removed from display. :(

I don't think you are BU at all, op. Not letting someone see photos of themselves or their children (unless there is going to be a special project) is creepy as fuck.

OP - I am your sister...not in reality but I take loads of photos of my nieces.

However when I used film, the first thing I would do is print them up in my darkroom, and send my brother printed copies of the best ones. Now in digital, I send him and my SIL and the girls copies straight away. I do the same with friends weddings, they get copies of the best ones on a CD before they are back from honeymoon. When I visit friends - all my photos are the ones framed and hung all over the house.

I suspect she is just a really bad photographer and uses your kids to try and get a decent photo one day.

If I were you, I'd say that if she brings the lot around [one day when the kids are not there] for you to have a look at, then you will take it from there.

I would never dream of not giving the parents pics of the kids that I have photographed, and I've done kids photoshoots for friends several times. Some still use them as online profile pics years later. Why take them and not look at them? Bloody weird.

However you said something about her resenting your parents giving her a decent upbringing which maybe suggests a more complex family dynamic going on with you

Waffly, could you please explain this? My sister is a far left socialist and happened to go to boarding school at her request, was bought a house, and had a few other nice things paid for for her. She has verbally attacked my parents over this saying her upbringing ruined her and that other people didn't get it etc. She is very critical of the lifestyle my parents have earned for themselves and in some ways choose to share with us.

But why would she then turn that towards me? I'm an irrelevancy in that other than I have different political leanings, which I choose not to share any more.

Honestly, I'm not that complicated. It's not a decades long battle, we are only in our twenties. I see my family when they and I can. We are different people, yet I persist in forging a relationship (not just with my sister) and when people take photos of me and my children, I ask for (and pay for) copies.

It is not a vendetta, I had no idea she would react like this, and weird though I may be, it's upsetting to me that she has photos of me and my family which she will not share, especially the ones I've asked to be taken or the rarer ones.

I'm amazed that she can freely use a photo of someone else however she likes without them having some say in it, especially since minors are involved.

And it's not just the photos why I wouldn't invite her over, how small minded. It's the "you hate me, you've always hated me", the huge ranting at me for a relatively normal request, the telling me I think she is a threat. None of that is normal and yes, my life is busy and complicated enough that I will just not see people who decide to add to that level of complication.

In addition, a relationship doesn't have to be conducted only at my home. But she doesn't have to be here, making me feel uncomfortable, if I choose not to. And right now I feel very uncomfortable and don't know how to take her.

Hi OP. Sorry to hear you are having a tough time. Sounds to me like your DSis is very self-centred (her rant was all very me, me, me), and controlling. You also mention that she has been the indulged child too, and clearly wants to be seen as quite special in what she does with her photography. I wonder if it might be worth reading a bit about narcissistic personality disorder. Done this myself recently in order to try and understand DBro, and it has been very helpful. I have decided that minimal contact is probably the right approach for me. I wish you confidence and strength in making your decisions with this

Something occurred to me as I was thinking about this thread last night...
Your sister has asked if she can keep taking photos of your children if she shares the photos with you.
Does she actually want to spend time with them, get to know them? Or are they just her photography subjects?

Alpaca that's exactly what DH said, she just wants to take photos rather than build relationships and memories

On a point of interest, surely my image IS my own, not hers? She has no right to take photos of me without my permission?

This is my point. You can't seem to grasp the simple fact: anyone can take a photo of you, or your children. You have no rights to your own image, other than in specific prescribed circumstances (they can't be used commercially without permission). If you live in the UK, you and your kids are being recorded and filmed all the time, you have CCTV everywhere.

Anyone can take your picture. And use it, display it etc as they wish (except for commercial profit). And your childrens.

Even on private property? I find this very hard to believe.

You know what, I don't care. If I can't prevent her from taking a photo of me, I won't be around her. Seems mad a photographer can do what they want where they want.

And yet it is true. If you own your house and want to you can put a sign on your door stating that you do not give permission for anyone to take photographs and anyone taking them will be ejected from the premises. But if they do there isn't anything you can do but ask them to leave.

Why do you find this so hard to believe?

It is odd, isn't it slithy?

I think there is something in the law about private property but I'm not sure. (And of course I'm American so my laws might be different anyway.) I think the laws are murky to protect journalism etc.

I find it hard to believe because my children are minors, my face and body belong to me, yet anyone can record it permanently and essentially do as they please with it. That my home is my safe space but they can do things against my will here before I eject them.

How do schools successfully stop photo taking and publishing? Goodwill?

Either way we are getting slightly off topic. And regardless of my sister apparently being legally allowed to do as she pleased, I will still try and prevent it while I feel the need.

There are some other factors but in essence it's as people say, copyright belongs to the photographer as the creator of the artefact. However, I disagree with the idea from monkeymamma that nothing is worth losing a sister or aunt for. It's a very damaging notion that you should avoid falling out with your family at any cost, because then you give them the green light to treat you as badly as they please. I think your sister clearly has issues and your kids, the photos and you have all become pawns in the game. I would be avoiding contact with her while she behaves so strangely.

How do schools successfully stop photo taking and publishing? Goodwill?

They get the parents to sign a disclaimer at the start - if your sister was publishing photos of you taken in your house for the purposes of earning money - then she would need a model release form or you could sue her.

Your children being minors makes no difference, you don't own them. Schools stop people taking photos by asking them not to. There isn't anything they can actually DO though.
I can take a picture of anyone or anything I want to, I don't know what you find so hard to understand.
Your sister and you both sound intransigent, stubborn, and more than a little odd about this whole bizarre issue. It simply isn't how people behave.

Op if I took photos of you and your family on a day out, they would be my photos, you would have no right to them. You need to make your peace with the fact that you do not legally own your image.
But your sister does sound like a handful!

Something really weird is going on with her. Unless she has some photo that you really need for some reason, I'd be tempted to say the photography is getting in the way of your relationship, and she is not to take any more photos of you or the children (at all, ever). It will cause a bit of a falling out in the short term - but that's already happening because of her being so weird, and once she does get over it eventually, there won't be this issue to fall out over. YANBU at all.