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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask if anyone is actually against lgbt+ ?

250 replies

tictocstar · 20/04/2015 19:05

If so why? Please people no attacking I am genuinely curious. I know American is more homophobic than UK, and I think (hopefully!) this thread will be empty, but anyone with any experiences or suchlike?

Also please don't accuse me of being homophobic.
(may sound ridic to epect to be accused, but when asking someone this,^ was the reply...)

OP posts:
OrlandoWoolf · 20/04/2015 21:35

mzungu

I hide my identity as well. So I understand all about that. Believe me I do. Been there and got the t shirt on that on. I know all about discrimination

But you can't hide it in a relationship. You look like your ethnic identity.

A transperson can look like a "male or female" - but they eventually have to tell a partner the truth. That's what I mean about labels.

FanFuckingTastic · 20/04/2015 21:37

I've identified as pansexual and poly for the past ten years, it's a quick way to describe the way I see relationships, where my attraction doesn't really depend on gender at all. I don't seem to encounter the same prejudice as gay people, but it does happen. It's like assuming bisexual people can't be faithful, it's hurtful and not true, but it's also mostly just ignorance to the term and what that means for you.

MadBannersAndCopPorn · 20/04/2015 21:41

I get where you're coming from with that one too intrinsic. Difficult isn't it? To find the balance? This has turned into an interesting thread, albeit pretty much off the topic of OP.
Must go now, food for thought as usual.

GraysAnalogy · 20/04/2015 21:43

I fit into a lot of labels, sometimes they're useful, sometimes they're not and carry a lot of stigma. I understand the point of needing them now I've read the explanations.

BUT some I read and I think, well you've created that just for the sake of a label. For example:
Gray-asexual: this is described as sometimes being asexual but sometimes not. So erm... not asexual then?
Demisexual: someone who only experiences sexual attraction if they get to know someone. So, bit like a lot of people then?

In fact just read the full list here jilliancottle.com/hallelujah-its-raining-labels/

If I bought into labels I'd be a bi-sexual, demi-sexual, Biromantic cishet in a Monoamory relationship.

It's getting a bit ridiculous.

GraysAnalogy · 20/04/2015 21:46

Completely agree with intristic

It's come to the point where you get called a prejudiced bigot for not calling someone 'dragoness' because thats their chosen pronoun and calling them 'her' is terribly offensive as they do not identify as human they identify as dragon

This probably seems pretty unbelievable to people, I wouldn't have believed it myself had I not seen it.

Moln · 20/04/2015 21:48

Ok granted someone privileged like myself, been in the same relationship for thousands of years, doesn't need to identify myself as anything to anyone in order to met someone, but what I really meant is society wouldn't need to find a label for everyone.

I'm probably still not being clear!

MzunguMzungu · 20/04/2015 21:48

I know its not a competition but I'm just so fucking offended that a person could be so ignorant to believe that anyone who wants to do away with labels is privileged compared to them. How self centered do you have to be?

MzunguMzungu · 20/04/2015 21:51

And yes OrlandoWoolf, my ethnicity does affect relationships.

IntrinsicFieldSubtractor · 20/04/2015 21:54

And yes, my previous post was maybe too simplistic. In some cases labels are necessary and/or useful (e.g. if a man's gay they presumably won't ever be attracted to me, and that's helpful to know in some cases). But once labels become too specific I don't think they're useful anymore.

Take 'sapiosexual' as a sexual orientation, for example, meaning someone who's attracted to intelligence. How is this any more of an 'orientation' than me being attracted almost exclusively to people with pale skin and dark hair? (In fact I would argue that it's even less defined, as intelligence is more subjective as a quality.) It's a preference, and it may or may not be fixed in stone, and it may or may not be useful information for a blonde person who has a massive crush on me - but people's preferences are so varied and nuanced that there's no point in having terms for all of them.

It might help some people to feel like they're part of a group, but it also hinders people who've faced genuine discrimination for being LGB, because it's an attempt to put all these 'orientations' on a level with being gay or bisexual. Which imo they're just not, regardless of whether I'm 'denying people's lived experience' by saying so.

OrlandoWoolf · 20/04/2015 21:54

mzungu

I didn't mean to offend you. I wish we didn't have labels - but they are important when it comes to things like discrimination.

If we didn't monitor the effect of say recruitment from people with different backgrounds (and yes, labels), we wouldn't know if there was an issue with discrimination.

People who normally ask why we have labels on recruitment / access to servces etc are normally people who haven't faced discrimination. I think it is important that these things are monitored or else you will never know ifn there is an issue.

OrlandoWoolf · 20/04/2015 21:55

mzungu

I never said it didn't affect your relationship.

IntrinsicFieldSubtractor · 20/04/2015 21:55

(I feel like this might be approaching the point where no-one else knows what the bloody hell me and Grays are on about because no-one else ever browses tumblr Grin)

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 20/04/2015 21:57

Tumblr is a real education in how people across the world identify sexually (or asexually, as it may be).

ZestyDragon · 20/04/2015 22:00

Ooo-er so I am pansexual it appears due to having had a relationship with a trans male to female at one time. Good to know Smile

DH is straight/queer if that makes sense (he has always been open) but as we are married to each other and monogamous people these days assume we are both straight.

There is a privilege that straight people don't realise and take for granted but for a certain amount of people finding someone to love and who will accept and love them back for who they are is damn hard though lots of people have that issue for lots of reasons I realise

Moln · 20/04/2015 22:00

I think Mzungu that came from someone who is marginalised by general society and feels anger at not being able to be the default accepted standard expectation (that's cisgender homosexual isnt it) so can't therefore enter into a relationship without having to 'reveal' their identify first.

From that point of view I am privalaged, but my original statment about not needing labels in a society where we were all accepting, being trans and having unrequited atteaction to another person would be akin to (being homosexual and) being turned down by someone else (homosexual). Well in my head it's that way in that nonlabel utopia anyway .

GhettoFabulous · 20/04/2015 22:01

But people identify themselves all the time, with nationality, ethnicity, marital status, as mothers, bus drivers, whatever. Why is it different for your gender or sexuality?

If I want to have a relationship I make damn sure the other person knows I'm poly because they need to know in order to make an informed decision.

We can work towards everyone being free and equal, but labels acknowledge that this isn't currently the case and that disclosure can be tricky or even dangerous. And there's strength in numbers, and the sense of community and knowing you're not mad or the odd one out.

Heteronormativity is all pervasive. There aren't mainstream narratives for other persuasions, except in limited, defined ways.

ZestyDragon · 20/04/2015 22:02

My best friend is asexual btw - she has never had a relationship or sex with a male or female. She is happy with that and that is her choice. She has good friends and feels that is all she needs.

MadBannersAndCopPorn · 20/04/2015 22:03

Sorry, back, couldn't help it! Have I missed out on something massive here? Wtf is tumblr? A dating website? Googling now...

OrlandoWoolf · 20/04/2015 22:04

It must be hard being asexual in such a world like this where sexual relationships are everywhere and almost expected.

I thought asexual meant you were happy to be in a relationship but didn't want the sex bit?

Anniegetyourgun · 20/04/2015 22:05

Going back to some comments earlier on, that you are unlikely to get anyone admitting to homophobia on MN, we were graced with a little cluster of threads on the run-up to the Marriage Act amendments. They started on the lines of "I'm not homophobic, really I'm not, I just don't see the point of allowing same sex marriage when civil partnerships exist, and lots of my gay friends agree with me". By a few pages in, with no more than one or two sock puppets posters agreeing, the OP was frothing dangerously and eventually started quoting scriptures to prove that it was so against Nature and God's will etc etc. Perhaps they thought that it doesn't count as homophobia unless you actually beat someone up. Anyway, it got rather lively and I think most of them were deleted.

OrlandoWoolf · 20/04/2015 22:05

I had a friend who was a transman in a polyamorous relationship with a transwoman and a woman.

I told my Dad who just looked at me Grin

mistybluebellwoods · 20/04/2015 22:08

People who insist homophobia doesn't exist are a little like those who state sexism does not exist. Just because it isn't overt does not mean it isn't there.

ANY gay woman (or man) wishing to have a family will be asked at some point 'is it fair on the child' - yes, even on liberal Mumsnet, this prejudice will be disguised with hand wringing about 'the right to know his father' and 'do you not have a gay male friend who can donate his sperm.'

Children born to same sex couples fare better than those born to heterosexual couples, statistics tell us - they tend to be from affluent households and stable ones but it still, somehow, isn't enough and some many, more than you think would rather our lovely children didn't exist at all.

SpinDoctorOfAethelred · 20/04/2015 22:11

My watershed moment with otherkin was in 2006 or something, when a woman asked me to accept she had the soul of a dragon.

I don't "accept" the existence of souls per se! Accepting unreservedly that

  1. humans have souls
  2. dragons exist
  3. dragons exist and have souls
  4. people can have the wrong species of soul

is not happening.

I think I upset her.

ZestyDragon · 20/04/2015 22:12

OrlandoWoolf My asexual friend has just never found "the one" I think. Someone who is prepared to have a non sexual relationship. She has been my bestie since we were 11 and I think at this stage at 39 she is just happy enough on her own as long as she has her friends.

IntrinsicFieldSubtractor · 20/04/2015 22:14

I don't have a problem with people identifying themselves with certain groups - as you say, that's part of life. I have a problem with the idea that questioning or even mocking someone's self-proclaimed identity makes you automatically as bad as a homophobe. It sounds sensible in theory, then you run into the kinds of things I mentioned upthread where 'identity' is used as a justification/shield for being genuinely homophobic, and suddenly it's not so clear-cut.

As I say, it's not always easy to distinguish. If I mocked someone for identifying as gay then I'd clearly be a dickhead, if I mocked someone for identifying as a gloomsexual transethnic non-dysphoric-transwoman with the soul of a cat and Jean-Luc Picard sharing the space in their head then maybe less so. Where the line is exactly, I couldn't tell you.

I used to identify as asexual, then I decided my sexuality was in all likelihood more complicated than that. I still don't know exactly what I'd call myself. No doubt some people would see that as being 'special snowflake-y', and while I disagree, they're perfectly within their rights to do so - I'd rather live in a society where they can do that and I can call bullshit on people saying gay men are misogynists because they're a 'gay' man who's attracted to women, than one where neither is allowed.