to not trust this 'helpful' stranger in the mountains?

[SummerOfLadybirds]

I've fallen out with a close friend and want to know who was BU.
We went camping in Lake District recently. We're experienced hikers so had all correct gear, provisions, torches, map, compass etc. We planned to stay in proper campsites as my friend hates wild camping. On 2nd day decided to leave marked routes as felt confident we could navigate. (The paths are too busy in good weather, we both wanted to hike in wilderness). At first it was fine, we went high up and didn't see anyone for hours. To cut a long story short we then lost the compass, got disorientated and got lost!! My friend started freaking out and worrying we'd have to camp in mountains if we couldn't find way down. I said that was fine, we had tent, food, clothes etc, we could set up camp and find way down in morning but she said she wanted a shower and a proper loo (and was scared of 'ghosts'!) I said its too dangerous to try and descend once its dark, she got in a massive strop.

Meanwhile for a couple of hours, despite seeing nobody all day, we'd both noticed a man in camouflage gear popping up in different places nearby. Once he was in front of us, once he was chilling by a rock, another time he was behind us. He didn't acknowledge us but he wasn't that close. We assumed he was just enjoying nature, going in same direction as us.

When the light began to fade, my friend got really scared and insisted we keep walking and suddenly we almost bumped into this man as we came around a boulder!! He said hi and asked where we were going, my friend started to blurt out we were lost, but I didn't want to seem vulnerable so I cut in and said 'we're not really lost' and made out she was joking. He was friendly but something didn't feel quite right and I felt we WERE vulnerable, 2 petite women and this guy (he was very tall and muscular, had a big army-style rucksack and just seemed a bit 'odd'). He offered to guide us down but I was worried he might lead us somewhere even more remote, so I told him thanks but we didn't need his help and was very assertive in not wanting to walk with him.
We carried on, I was freaked out now because of the man, and my friend was petrified of being on mountain in night and not speaking to me because i'd refused his help.
Anyway we did make it off the mountain (in the dark) and finally got to a campsite at 2am.

My friend is still furious that I wouldn't let this man help us. I still think he could have done anything to us, like leading us further off-route in the dark and raping us.

I have spent the best part of 20 plus years in the hills, mostly Snowdonia and the Lake Distirct, although sadly with me now living in the south east I am generally confined to the not quite so wild South Downs for my outdoor fix. From my experience single walkers out in the hills on their own is not that uncommon a sight, some people just love the solitude and having a few hours/days away from the pressures of work or urban life, does not make them weirdo axe murderers. I have done it myself a few times, nothing beats wild camping, waking up at first light watching a beautiful sunrise over a stunning landscape with just the local wildlife and a fresh brewed coffee for company. I have also helped other walkers out who in my opinion looked like they were struggling a bit with directions, I guess at those times I probably looked a bit wild and ragged being all unshaved and a bit grubby. I also know that I would not be able to forgive myself if I ignored or at least did not try to help fellow walkers in distress and later found out they had found frozen to death (it happens) or dead at the bottom of a cliff (it happens). As someone up thread mentioned there is a fair bit of comradery amongst walkers, be it just a cheery hello as you pass each other through to the offering of sweets/hot tea/advice if you find yourselves in each others company for a bit longer (i.e taking shelter from a storm). Years ago I pretty much refused to let some gun ho dad march his cold, wet miserable family (partner and two preteen boys) up Snowden in winter as I could only see it ending in disaster given they had nothing resembling appropriate clothing or equipment for the task ahead or any appreciation that it was late in the say and the weather and visibility was rapidly deteriorating. He probably still dines out on the story of how some oddball dangerous loner prevented his triumphant ascent of the highest mountain in Wales.

By admitting we were lost, trusting him and helplessly following him we would have been more vulnerable

You wouldn't have been more vulnerable. Had you camped, you would have been equally vulnerable as he could simply have come back with his hypothetical mates. Your fear was really no more rational than your friend being spooked by the wilderness at night.

I don't understand why he didn't say hello earlier, in daylight, and ask if we wanted help, instead of waiting till light faded.

Presumably because you didn't look like you were lost when walking in broad daylight. Wandering about as darkness was falling and making no attempt to camp probably made it clear you were lost. Like you, I imagine he was walking in the wilderness to avoid people.

Add message | Report | Message poster OttiliaVonBCup Tue 14-Apr-15 21:47:39
I read a book like this once.
they all got horribly killed.

Was he whistling Strangers In The Night?

I was going to say the exact same thing. Almost identical to the extent novel by Paul Finch (Dead man walking).

Is a good book!

OP you have explained yourself very well and I understand your rationale on this one, but I'm still going to disagree with you.
The strange feeling you got was because he was a man on his own. Simple.
If I had been in your predicament (and I can well envision it, being a hillwalker myself) I would have accepted his help.

Actually, what I really would have done, was pitch the tent as per your initial suggestion, so imo your silly pal who was scared of ghosts was unreasonable overall.

I too laughed at "can't get lost in the Lakes" - could only have come from someone who's never trekked the mountains there, or indeed any others. We are experienced orienteers in them there hills, but still managed to lose our eldest son on Scafell when he nipped off for a pee on a cloudy day.

As I said above I would be more scared of the mountains than off the man. So far this year 3 people have dies just on helvellyn and they were all experienced well equipped walkers.
Doubt he was a poacher either as people up here tend to go lamping and that's at night.
Hope it's not put you off too much and you come back to our lovely Lake District soon.

I'm on the Facebook page called I Love The Lake District.

It's a close knit online community and regulars are often bumping into eachother on the fells.

I recently read an almost identical story on that page except it was a mixed couple who felt vulnerable and two men in question. It was the woman who'd posted.
The poster described in great detail the men's actions, 'following behind' them on a trail, popping up ahead of them at later stages, finding them sitting on a boulder another time as they passed 'looking suspicious', walking right past them/overtaking another time, and ultimately ^being on the same stretch of coast' as them reaching their final route destination. She seemed most concerned that one of them was in jeans and they looked like gypsies...

The general consensus was that all parties were relatively appropriately attired and equipped for the hike and the poster should realise that wherever you walk on the fells, even the most remote parts, you are going to bump along with other hikers, or even find them scuttling along in the grass on their bellies (birdwatching), sitting on a rock up ahead of you all silent and moody (having a rest and a sandwich) and even, god forbid, offering their expertise in assisting lost travellers.

Didn't it occur to you that if he'd wanted to lead you into some remote spot to exploit your vulnerability, once you'd said you weren't lost, fine thanks, we'll carry on, he could have just followed you anyway until you reached a sufficiently remote spot?

Equip yourself better (take a second compass or gps phone) and don't go on the fells with an equally nervous hiker - this episode clearly shows up both of you having potential liability.

Meanwhile, I recommend the Facebook page mentioned above for reassurance and safety stats regarding lone female hikers.

The gypsies aren't here yet as they come for Appleby horse fair.
I doubt very much they would be roaming the fells of coniston !

Sorry but I'm with the OP on this one.

I think it's prudent, careful and sensible not to follow s man you don't know around a mountain you don't know.

I get that there is a community going on which the OP wouldn't have known about but ultimately I would have reacted in exactly the same way. I think she was appropriately cautious and careful.

And the arguments that say he could just have followed them anyway - well, yes, but he would have been taking a gamble that they went somewhere secluded enough for him to exploit them.

I think this needs to be less about the location and more about the actual situation.

"Experienced" my arse.

We've both hiked for years (including winter camping) but have rarely needed to navigate, we normally hike with people who are good at this.

And so you decided to leave the paths & blunder round off the beaten track.

Just the sort of area that people into Bushcraft or Wild Camping like to be. He probably wanted you out of the way so he could get on with settling in for the night without having to worry about you tripping over his guidelines or the Rescue Chopper blowing his fire out.

I'd suggest that you brush up on your map-reading, maybe buy a GPS for emergencies & make sure that everyone in your group has the appropriate equipment each.

Our DofE kids have been out and about on their own in these areas for years with no problems at all, no doubt if you'd bumped into one of their groups you'd have been posting about "teenage gangs"...

Well done you PanGalactic .

I think it is sensible to listen to your instincts - in this situation that's all you've got.

I don't anyone can say you were wrong because they weren't there.

But your friend is a twat to be scared of ghosts and no loo. I'd only go walking in a town park with her again if I were you

OP, I've not read all your replies, but I believe you were right to trust your instincts. Ignore that 'gut feeling' at your peril, imo.

Just tell your friend you're sorry, but you just didn't comfortable with this man, and see if you can both draw a line under the whole incident.

You'll never know what might have happened if you had accepted his help - you either could have found yourself back at camp earlier than 2am, or you could've found yourself in real trouble- it doesn't matter now - you're both safe.

Why would you have left the trail & followed him? You never got that far in the interaction, if I understand correctly. The appropriate procedure would have been to admit you were in a muddle, ask him where you all were on the map & consider his suggestions about directions to your campsite and which way to go next. Then you continue on your way with a cheery wave. Why the heck would you have expected to follow him anywhere? And if he tagged along... well, it's a free country. You have to kind of expect he had every right to wander around too. Shouldn't go anywhere on your own if you can't cope with this possibility.

Whole thread is Kind of ironic, when poster on another thread accuses a woman's husband of mental illness (paranoia) because he's afraid people will think he's a sexual predator if he goes for a walk alone in the city.

Poor you OP. Don't take the haughty, rude answers to heart. Some people are so bloody pissy.
We're constantly learning by our mistakes in everything we do. Keep on walking pal...next time take another compass.

We have booked 10 days camping in Nether Wasdale for the first two weeks of July (before the English schools break up for summer) and will be treading in your footsteps. I just can't wait. Many a happy evening to come in the planning, pouring over the Ordinance Survey maps with my husband.

...he would have been taking a gamble that they went somewhere secluded enough for him to exploit them.

They already were somewhere secluded enough. He didn't need to lure them anywhere.

'OP's unease is down to the fact that seeing a man in combats is a little bit frightening in its own right if you are lost as it draws attention to the fact you are probably out of your depth and about to look a bit of a twat. A touch of embarrassment or pride rather than the guy being creepy...?'

No, this was not the case at all. I would have felt no shame or embarrassment asking for help. I have helped and received help from other walkers on different occasions (including lone males). I once helped a man look for his lost dog on a remote fellside when I was hiking alone, no-one else around, and did not feel afraid of him at all. I'm not usually wary of people in fells.

There was just something about this man (its bugging me that I can't put my finger on it!) It was just a sudden strong feeling not to trust him and to get away from him. I wasn't afraid of him until we came face to face with him. (Nothing alarming about his appearance close up, just that feeling of danger.) He didn't offer us help with directions, just offered to guide us down when my friend blurted out 'we're lost'. Until then I'd been mildly puzzled by his appearances throughout afternoon, my friend had noticed too but put it down to him walking same way. Until we met him up close I would happily have forgotten all about him and camped right there if friend had agreed. After speaking to him I was eager to get as far away from him as possible, as quickly as possible. The whole time we were descending I kept looking over my shoulder and had my Swiss knife accessible in pocket. Maybe I was picking up my friend's anxiety or influenced by dark/tiredness/fear, but I've never felt like that in fells before. BTW I know its dangerous to descend in dark, but we had powerful head torches and there was a moon, and its not the first time I've been in mountains at night.

'It's people like the OP and her friend that put a strain on the mountain rescue services.'

I disagree. At no point did we consider calling mountain rescue! If it had been too dark or treacherous to descend we still had option of camping where we were, and finding route in the morning (considering we eventually found route at night with no compass, Im sure we wouldn't have been lost for days). We had an expedition tent and subzero bags so were not at risk of exposure even if weather had changed.
People who put a strain on mountain rescue are usually people who go walking without adequate clothing, with no food or shelter, with no knowledge of terrain or weather or what to do in emergency. Or experienced climbers who take risks and get injured.

'Didn't it occur to you that if he'd wanted to lead you into some remote spot to exploit your vulnerability, once you'd said you weren't lost, fine thanks, we'll carry on, he could have just followed you anyway until you reached a sufficiently remote spot?'

Yes it did occur to me. But I felt safer descending without him. Since he had no reason to be physically close, we would have heard him coming had he decided to follow us, and had time to react. Sound carries a long way at night. Its harder to surprise-attack someone from a distance than if you're walking next to them.
Can I ask a genuine question? If you and a friend were walking through a deserted place at night, unsure of way, and a man offered to walk with you but you felt afraid of him, would you feel safer walking beside him or safer if you kept him at arms length?

As for not being any safer inside a tent... again I disagree. Its a barrier between you and the outside world, and you'll have an early warning if someone tries to get in. Most tents have a zip you can lock from inside, and winter tents have thick strong fabric that would be difficult to slash open even with a knife. Either way you'd probably wake up if somebody came near tent, and would have time to reach for a weapon.

Why are you asking if you were being unreasonable? Clearly you don't think you were and just want people to agree with you. Pointless.

SoupDragon, I appreciate most people's opinions and points of view, I'm just pointing out some people on here are being very judgey. I accept I was BU re not having a spare compass and maybe re panicking over the man's intentions (divided opinion on that) but I don't accept we were 'putting a strain on mountain rescue services' or that I was too proud to ask for help.

Who usually carries spare compasses though ? I always have one on my rucksack but never a spare.
So you were fully equipped and it was just unfortunate you lost your compass. Could have happened to anyone.
I usually read about idiots that set off up Sca fell in trainers and Mars bar. ! It's those people that should be charged for calling our the mountain rescue.

Summerofladybirds - you've explained yourself well. I do think that instinct should be listened to - absolutely. You didn't trust this man and as we weren't there we can't judge that you were right or wrong not to do that.

Personally, I can judge how you are behaving with your friend now. As I said earlier, I think you both made fairly monumental mess-ups with the whole expedition and that being experienced does not mean that you are immune to acting idiotically in this situation. I think your judgement was extremely poor in not camping (despite having headlamps etc) and I'm sure mountain rescue people would have a word or two on the subject.

For that reason I think this is a ridiculous argument to have with your friend. The question is not whether she should be angry with you for not trusting the creepy man, but that you should both be angry with yourselves for being donkeys with your safety. Personally, I'd apologise for 'doing wrong' on the trip (because it was you that did lose the compass) and try and draw a line under it.

At no point did we consider calling mountain rescue!

Doesn't mean you were doing the right thing or not putting yourself at risk of needing mountain rescue.

Its a barrier between you and the outside world, and you'll have an early warning if someone tries to get in. Either way you'd probably wake up if somebody came near tent, and would have time to reach for a weapon.

If you are asleep you can't guarantee how deeply you are asleep. You are gambling on whether you would wake. Which is a bit daft imho. You are more vulnerable asleep than awake.

People who put a strain on mountain rescue are usually people who go walking without adequate clothing, with no food or shelter, with no knowledge of terrain or weather or what to do in emergency.

To requite an earlier poster:

" the most common causes of incidents are poor navigation (23 per cent), bad planning (18 per cent) and inadequate equipment (11 per cent)......

“the prime causes of incidents in British hills are a failure to develop skill and experience in controlled conditions, failure to temper plans to suit the ability of the least able in a party and failure to have and know how to employ the proper equipment, particularly relating to map and compass.”

There does appear to have been a sharp increase in calls to MR teams of minor incidents (usually involving casual hill-walkers) that are ‘avoidable’ if people had planned better. For instance there are examples of people not having basic navigation and map reading skills, overestimating their abilities and getting 'cragfast', not taking account of changes in the weather and getting caught out by darkness"

If you went walking off the beaten track with only one compass between the two of you, and were unable to guide yourself off until 2am you are NOT experienced enough to be doing it, you ARE overestimating your abilities and you match the description above almost to the letter.

I think it's prudent, careful and sensible not to follow a man you don't know around a mountain you don't know.
Far more sensible to wander around aimlessly in the dark!!

How can your ONLY means of navigation have been a compass?
Did you not have a map?

Asked ( supposed paranoid ) walking OH from other thread what he would have done if he happened upon ( supposed helpless) females and he said he would have said a cheery hello ladies, do you need any help? Can I give you any directions?

Then he would have backed off if you said no.

Then he's like that. He's not threatening at all.

Funnily enough a belated birthday card turned up today with a man walking a dog in his shorts!

I had a good muttley snigger at that one!