to not trust this 'helpful' stranger in the mountains?

[SummerOfLadybirds]

I've fallen out with a close friend and want to know who was BU.
We went camping in Lake District recently. We're experienced hikers so had all correct gear, provisions, torches, map, compass etc. We planned to stay in proper campsites as my friend hates wild camping. On 2nd day decided to leave marked routes as felt confident we could navigate. (The paths are too busy in good weather, we both wanted to hike in wilderness). At first it was fine, we went high up and didn't see anyone for hours. To cut a long story short we then lost the compass, got disorientated and got lost!! My friend started freaking out and worrying we'd have to camp in mountains if we couldn't find way down. I said that was fine, we had tent, food, clothes etc, we could set up camp and find way down in morning but she said she wanted a shower and a proper loo (and was scared of 'ghosts'!) I said its too dangerous to try and descend once its dark, she got in a massive strop.

Meanwhile for a couple of hours, despite seeing nobody all day, we'd both noticed a man in camouflage gear popping up in different places nearby. Once he was in front of us, once he was chilling by a rock, another time he was behind us. He didn't acknowledge us but he wasn't that close. We assumed he was just enjoying nature, going in same direction as us.

When the light began to fade, my friend got really scared and insisted we keep walking and suddenly we almost bumped into this man as we came around a boulder!! He said hi and asked where we were going, my friend started to blurt out we were lost, but I didn't want to seem vulnerable so I cut in and said 'we're not really lost' and made out she was joking. He was friendly but something didn't feel quite right and I felt we WERE vulnerable, 2 petite women and this guy (he was very tall and muscular, had a big army-style rucksack and just seemed a bit 'odd'). He offered to guide us down but I was worried he might lead us somewhere even more remote, so I told him thanks but we didn't need his help and was very assertive in not wanting to walk with him.
We carried on, I was freaked out now because of the man, and my friend was petrified of being on mountain in night and not speaking to me because i'd refused his help.
Anyway we did make it off the mountain (in the dark) and finally got to a campsite at 2am.

My friend is still furious that I wouldn't let this man help us. I still think he could have done anything to us, like leading us further off-route in the dark and raping us.

[BonzoDooDah]

I didn't take what you said as confrontational florascotia and didn't mean to sound snotty back either.

As Caspian says - and I said earlier - it's not a "mystical" woo sense we are talking about. It is a real sensing and reading of non-verbal clues. I think mostly we're pretty crap at recognising and interpreting them at a conscious level but good at reading them at a subconscious one - otherwise "magicians" such as Derren Brown wouldn't be making such fantastical shows by leading people on using subliminal hints and directions.

90% or people attacked / murdered / hurt by people they know still leaves 10% of people attacked by strangers. And that is a lot less than 90% but still significant. Those attacks happen somewhere. And yes - a lot are drunken brawls outside pubs and clubs and a lot are theft motivated. But there still are people out there who are manipulative and have a warped morality and do opportunistic things.

I can't understand why you think it's almost impossible for an introvert / nature lover / fan of hill walking to also be a mentally unstable predator. Statistics alone would show there are some people like that. Most of us won't meet them. If I did I'm sure I wouldn't know. If I did meet someone when I was feeling vulnerable though and they were giving off signals that they were not trustworthy then I'd be a complete idiot to hand over my wellbeing to them.

[CaspianSea]

'What worries me about words like 'instinct' is that they can be used to justify all kinds of irrationalities and even prejudices - and, in the case of the two walkers in the original posting, get in the way of clear thinking and potentially lead people into real danger.'

But sometimes 'instinct' results from unconscious processing of non-verbal cues... You don't always have time to analyse someone's stance, eye movements, tone of voice or weigh up why you feel uneasy about them. As other posters have said, the man may not have been prepared to stack strangers, but may have been trying to befriend them, with the intention of leading them further from path, maybe getting 'lost' himself and helping them set up camp. If he'd lulled them into false sense of security and gained their trust he might then have forced himself on them.

[florascotia]

If it really matters, Bozo's friend was in a cafe when she met him. The cafe was in a 'town' or village (the biggest settlement in Skye has fewer than 3000 people); as Bonzo says, the friend decided to stay there and not go for a walk after the man had intruded on her personal space by coming to sit uninvited at her table. I don't know whether he spoke to her, or stared at her or something similar; quite possibly he did.

I'm sure the friend was very sensible. I'd want to stay out of the way of any man who displayed inappropriate familiarity, even if it happened right in the middle of Glasgow! Not because of 'instinct', but because the man would have been discourteous and unneccessary and quite possibly intimidating. Keeping away from a person like that seems to me perfectly prudent behaviour, but it would be based on rational observation of the man's conduct, not on some mysterious instinct or sense of evil.

What worries me about words like 'instinct' is that they can be used to justify all kinds of irrationalities and even prejudices - and, in the case of the two walkers in the original posting, get in the way of clear thinking and potentially lead people into real danger.

I don't think we're on opposite sides here. But, just for the record, only 10% of sexual attacks on women are by strangers. And the vast majority of attacks happen indoors, in places - home, work and other seemingly 'safe' locations - that victims are familiar with.

[CaspianSea]

Dodged... OP mentioned several times they had an expedition tent and subzero sleeping-bags! And I doubt it's been raining solidly there for last couple of months.

Bonzo... Thanks for finding the story. I can easily believe the man your friend saw was the same one. To the poster who claimed its irrelevant because man did not murder the woman in the mountains... Bonzo's friend was hiking when she met him in the cafe. She was so afraid of him she cut the day short. I strongly believe we're able to pick up on subtle cues that indicate if a person is a potential threat. This thread is about trusting instincts (not the dangers of hypothermia) but many people seem to have missed the point!

[DodgedAnAsbo]

Strange. I was in the lake district, but not in the mountains for a week recently. The most important fact was the constant rain and the below freezing temperatures in the evening. The OP doesn't seem to have noticed any of that, and mentions carrying the little items but forgets carrying the tent, bags , cooker and cooking gear. I smell a rat

[florascotia]

Bonzo - as you say, the story you are recalling happened a long time ago. I didn't want to be confrontational or impolite, so if I was, I apologise. It's just that the story turned out not to be about mountain walking at all, which was the original topic of this thread. Also, the man murdered someone he knew, at his own home; there is no suggestion in the accounts of the crime that he was planning to go further afield and/or attack strangers. He also managed to conceal the crime from many people - police, reporters, friends, family, workmates - for a very long time, and so I found the idea that he carried some nasty aura around with him rather hard to believe. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Re the 15 miles - yes, that is the distance from Inverinate to the Skye Bridge, so of course anyone could drive fairly quickly between the two places. But, beyond the bridge, Skye is a big island - about 60 miles long - and, while the murderer could indeed have been hanging around in a cafe somewhere there, he'd have to have taken time away from his work to do so, and made a deliberate journey. It would not have been on his doorstep, so to speak ...

[daisychain01]

Sheesh. 13 pages for a relatively uneventful, if drawn out, day on the hills. Considering the number of hillwalkers up there, imagine if they all posted about slightly more exciting days. Mumnset would be inundated

Um isn't that the whole point of Mumsnet? Most threads are a nice bit of inane bollox chat

[AGnu]

Is there anything to poach up there? Given that someone way up-thread said he matched the description of a local poacher, I'd guess that's exactly what he was up to & wanted to make sure you were off the mountain & out of his business! He could quite easily have meant you no harm & still been up to no good.

My dad's scared me off hill/mountain walking for life. I've never really enjoyed it anyway. When he first started taking us 'proper' walking I must've been about 10-12 & he somewhat over-emphasised the dangers & how to be prepared. I'm now fully aware of what to do in pretty much any situation that I might encounter, but have no plans to go up any hills/mountains any time soon! If I did it would have to be with at least 3 other people - one to stay with me when I got injured because I've developed a complex that it absolutely would happen & 2 to go for help so no-one is ever left alone.

[BerylStreep]

I posted earlier about someone I know who is a sexual predator. He is suspected of committing some very serious sexual assaults, but for various reasons, which I can't go into, has not been prosecuted.

What I do know, is that he is not the type of person to suddenly jump on a lone female and rape or murder her, but would attempt to strike up a friendship / acquaintance, very probably through offering help, with a view to getting an opportunistic shag / pushing the issue so it becomes sexual assault.

He is also a keen rambler / hill-walker. I don't know if he has ever tried it on during this activity, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. (he is not near the lake district though)

I think it is a bit of a myth that all rapists jump out of the blue and attack their victims (although sadly it does happen), often they try to get close beforehand.

[BonzoDooDah]

No, it wasn't on the mountain. I had my facts wrong. But it is 15 miles by "main A-Class Road" to Skye. Are you saying there is no way he could have been on Skye or in a cafe nearby? He didn't go home from her cafe meeting and murder someone - he'd obviously done that months and months before...
But anyway ... it doesn't really matter ... my friend saw him in a cafe and something about him gave her the shivers. Turns out he was a murderer - she saw his face again in the newspaper. (I did say it wasn't my story and I was muddling the specifics)
She trusted her instincts - I'm saying it doesn't matter where you are - if someone gives you the creeps then protect yourself and take more care just as Beloved72 said above. Nothing to lose except a possible friendship.
Lots to gain. If you think someone is following you then don't take the shortcut down the alley way. If the way they look at you when you ask for directions creeps you out then don't accept the lift home with them ... if you think someone is a bit of a weirdo on a lonely mountain top then don't show you are vulnerable and ask them for help or put yourself in their care/ control.

[florascotia]

But that killer was not a hiker; he was the resident handyman at his mother's guest house, and - like (alas) so many killers he was already acquainted with his victim. She did NOT meet him on a walk in wild countryside; she had met him on her many previous visits to the guesthouse and he had written at least one letter to her.
And, while Inverinate is in indeed the Highlands, it is a village on a main A-class road - one of the main thoroughfares in the district, busy with cars and caravans and coach-tours- not half-way up a remote mountain. Also, while it is not far as the crow flies from Skye, in walking terms, it is several days distance. There is no way - unless on a whistle-stop coach tour - that a walker would be in a cafe on Skye (which is a pretty big place) at tea-time and back at Inverinate the same day.

[StaceyAndTracey]

Yes, such a terrible case

[BonzoDooDah]

I think with it being such a shocking incident my friend must have seen the newspaper picture of the killer and recognised him from the cafe (and I have the specifics about timings muddled up).
I only knew the approximate dates because I worked with this friend at a certain place so can date it back to then when she told me.

[BonzoDooDah]

StaceyAndTracey I was being dogged and you mentioning some details I did some googling and found this article
and this more sensationalist one
The Guest House was 15 miles from Skye and the incident was in the 1990s. Seems like it fits what my friend told me. Highly likely he could have been on Skye or thereabouts until his arrest. Or my friend was near Skye (I said I was shaky on the specifics due to it being 20+ years ago).
Whatever - the second article even has an extract from the murdered woman's diary:
"Strange letter awaited me from Donald McMillan. Embarrassing to cope with."

Highlighting again - even she had doubts and suspicions about her killer.

[Beloved72]

I second reading "The Gift Of Fear"

It says that when we feel uneasy or uncomfortable about someone it's often because at some level we are picking up on subtle threatening behaviour that our highly socialised selves are mentally glossing over.

[BonzoDooDah]

StaceyAndTracey - it was in the late 1980s / early 90s this happened and I may well have the Scottish island confused and some of the details. (Long time ago and didn't happen to me). But I am absolutely sure the man at her table in the cafe was the one then appearing in the newspapers as having murdered a lone woman.
Whatever it was - there was something about him that she didn't like at subconscious level. (Over friendly? Too intense? Who knows?)

Then again - lots of times you don't feel like that with someone and they are terrible people or the reverse. I'm just saying that if you DO get that feeling about someone then don't ignore it. You have generally lost nothing by not taking a risk with a stranger and there is (very rarely) a lot to lose by not taking heed of a nagging feeling in your mind.
There are quite a few situations where i have felt uneasy leaving my car or setting off doing something but have shrugged it off. Some of those times nothing has happened but a few times I've returned to find my car vandalised and one time it just wasn't there - had been stolen (from a place I would not have suspected that to happen).
I am not at all woo but know that sometimes you notice things on the periphery that are not immediately obvious.

[SummerOfLadybirds]

Thanks Bonzo. I agree we should listen to our instincts and not trust strangers just because its a different environment.

I think many people get lulled into a false sense of security in areas of natural beauty. Its easy to assume anyone we meet there must be decent characters, enjoying nature like us, and that they mean no harm.
I can't justify accepting help just because the 'majority' of hikers are helpful and trustworthy. If I have a bad feeling about someone I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[SabrinnaOfDystopia]

I remember reading Bill Bryson's "A Walk in the Woods" - an excellent book - about his trek through the Appalachian trail. Of all his tales about bears and mountain lions, the one that left me chilled was the one about 2 women found murdered in their tent. Never found the person that did it - just one of those mysteries.

[StaceyAndTracey]

There was a terrible case of a hill walker murdered more that 20 years ago . But she was killed in a guest house by the son of the guest house owners , not out walking , and it wasn't on Skye.

[StaceyAndTracey]

Bonzo - I think your friend is confused . Unless she's in her 70s or older.

There are lots of deaths of hill walkers on Skye , but from accidents , not murders .

[BonzoDooDah]

SummerofLadyBirds I just want to say I think you were completely right to not accept help if you felt something was wrong. I have quite often had that feeling and have been right in some way or another about the person. (And I completely understand how prepared you were for a night on the hills - in fact I am in awe of you carrying all that stuff and still hiking that long and far)

Not to completely freak you out but this is a story told by a friend. (Disclaimer it was about 20 years ago she told me so details may not be completely right)
She and her friend were on a walking holiday on Skye. Lots of day walks out. This one day her friend was feeling dodgy and didn't want to go out with her - but my friend thought she'd go anyway as, like you, she was a confident walker and wasn't worried about being on the hills alone.
She did a short walk then stopped at a cafe. In there she was on a table on her own drinking tea and reading her book or the newspaper. A man came and sat at her table with her. He spooked her. She could never say why. Something about him.
Anyway she decided not to go walking on her own that afternoon after all and stuck to the town.
When she got home (years before mobile phones and internet) her family were freaked out as a lone female walker had been killed that week on Skye. The man was eventually caught and it was the man at her table in the cafe.
I am completely aware this sounds like made-up cliched bollocks but it is as true as I can remember and I really trusted the friend telling the story. (She had absolutely no reason to lie)
No matter what you need to do to protect yourself - do it. Sometimes your subconscious can pick up body language signals from people that you are not aware you had noticed. There are always times we get it wrong but I'd rather err on the side of caution and be able to tell the tale of "how silly I was being".

[StaceyAndTracey]

Getting lost on a london street is a totally different situation and has a different risk assessment . I'm suprised that people can't see this .

If the OP had posted " should I go into a shop in London and ask for directions or accept the help of a lone man who approached me and offered to take me down a dark alley ? "

Everyone woudl have said to do the first .

[CaspianSea]

'On the mountains, alternative options like wandering around lost with no compass in the dark are very dangerous.'

Not if visibility is good and there are no hidden cliff-faces to fall off. Remember OP had an expedition tent so could have camped and stayed warm at any point.
Trusting a stranger (who made them feel nervous and uneasy) was IMO the riskier option. Even if they'd asked for directions there's no guarantee he would have directed them the right way!