To think some children are just horrible?

[Wideeyedcarrrot]

And ds is one of those children.

I don't know what's gone wrong, it must be my fault but I've done my best. He's always been difficult. He wants smiley and cheery like other people's babies and toddlers. He was miserable and did nothing but scream. He never slept. He still doesn't eat very well as certain textures and smells make him sick. He's very demanding of my time. And now all he wants to do is fight. He's very aggressive and unpleasant, he has a superior attitude and always wants to be the best. He's unkind to other children, putting them down and being spiteful. We've been out with a friend today. Her children walked around the farm park enjoying themselves and looking at animals like normal children. Mine wanted to race, to spot the animals 'first' to crow that he'd seen something before them. He can't just be like other children. He doesn't appreciate anything, he's obnoxious and rude.
It ended in him (purposefully although he claims it was an accident) running over a toddler whilst he was on a pedal tractor. I don't think he meant to actually knock the child over but he was chasing after him whilst riding the tractor so it was bound to happen. I just couldn't quite get there in time to stop it even though I was shouting at ds to stop.
I took ds off the tractors, told him off, made him sit out and watch. He wasn't allowed anything from the gift shop (I'd originally said he could spend his pocket money) and there won't be any football tonight or tomorrow.
I can barely even look at him. Why would be behave like that to a little child? No one has ever been mean to him. That's how psychopaths start, by picking on those weaker than them. He constantly has to be pretending to fight, always got a stick in his hand pretending it's a gun. The behaviour disgusts me, I don't want him anywhere near me at the moment although I'm trying not to show it because I'm so annoyed about the tractor incident. I'm trying to calm down.
What has gone so badly wrong? Why is he such hard work? He can't relate to people properly. Well no actually he can. When he chooses to or when he wants something. He's very manipulative.

I wonder if it's because he's an only child but so am I and I never had trouble relating to other children. And I know other people with only children and their dc aren't like ds. He always wants more, he's never satisfied with anything. Never grateful for anything.

Is this something I've done or Aibu to think some children are just more difficult than others? My friend didnt once have to speak to her children about their behaviour. I'm constantly on edge with ds waiting for him to do something he shouldn't. Earlier in the day he'd been 'pushing' my friend's dd on the swing. Except actually he'd been thumping her in the back and trying to push her off and again I had to go and intervene. I just cannot understand why he does it, where is this nasty behaviour coming from?

Wow he sounds a LOT like my 6 year old DS, who is in the process of a formal diagnosis of what looks like sensory processing disorder. Once we'd got a steer on that, it changed how we expected him to behave and that's helped enormously.
I hear your frustration though, I've been at the edge of reason some days. Good luck. X

Wide - so many of the things you say are identical to DS2 - not crawling, late walking but normal talking development etc. Problems with food, textures, clothes; unhappy, screeching, poor sleeping babyhood. DS2 was recently diagnosed with HFA - what used to be called Aspergers and all of these are early signals of it (not saying it is that - they could be early signals of lots of other things, or just co-incidences, but it is worth considering.

I'd forgotten but at 5 or 6 he was deeply insecure when I showed affection elsewhere. I often had to explain that my love for him was like a gigantic bubble that was all for him and never got popped or shared or divided and my love for anyone else was their own bubble. (I read somewhere that this was a way of explaining it that young children would understand.) It took him ages to trust that my attention elsewhere didn't diminish my interest in him or love for him.

He also doubted praise. Still does. But craves it. Instead I try to focus on what he's enjoyed about doing something or what his aims were when he has a go at an art project or model making. Showing interest in, rather than judging (even in a positive way) seems to be more tolerable and effective.

OP - you say 'he's always been disagreeable' but you are also describing a lot of examples where he is showing poor self esteem. Do you accept the two things are closely related?

Well I suppose it's a vicious circle but he's been awkward since he was born and he didn't have low self esteem straight from the womb. However he cried a lot (and it was very very very loud) right from the get go. He wouldn't sleep or feed. He was grouchy and miserable (probably on account of being tired).

So yes he's always been hard work.

He sounds like he's allergic to foods- you must get him checked out.

Also you much get him checked out for Aspergers.

There was a kid just like this in my DS's school. He was dx at 8 and has the help he needs now.
He was obnoxious, disruptive, scathing and aggressive, and had no friends. No one wanted to be near him.
His parents were very pushy for him to get a statement - it's changed his life.

Your DS is struggling as much as you are with his behaviour. I think you're doing very well to notice and want to help him.

I've read about reacting negatively to praise before. It can be related to several things - not really believing it about themselves, due to actually feeling that they are a bad person, which is often (but not always) related to past experience when they have been told they are bad or have had bad things happen to them. Feeling patronised by it especially if the praise comes across as "false" or they are aware that what they're being praised for is easy for others but not for them.

Sometimes it feels like a lot of pressure - like they feel really embarrassed and put on the spot by it, and like suddenly this thing they were just doing for fun has been judged by you and now it's got this value attached because you approve of it, which brings a big anxiety about whether they're doing it "right" and it can just be overwhelming and too much to cope with in that moment. I read an article recently relating to this, it was about watching children play sport, and how we naturally tend to get really excited and enthusiastic about their successes, the goals, the wins, the most honed skills, but that it can be more important to just tell your child that you love watching them (run, swim, play, whatever) because actually only ever focusing on the wins forces a sort of performance anxiety where they feel as though they are only valued when they win or succeed. Of course not all children are sensitive to this sort of thing, but some are, and I thought it was a really good perspective.

Sometimes if they have a bit of an oppositional or demand avoidant kind of thing going on or even if they're just in the mood for/habit of an argument it can just trigger that "No it's not!" switch for them and they have to immediately push against it, almost unconsciously.

And yes to not understanding a generic phrase such as "Good job" but that can often relate to e.g. ASD where a person has a very literal interpretation of words and doesn't understand what is a "good job" about whatever it is they are doing.

It can help to state something factual about what they're doing (e.g. with cars instead of saying a generic "nice playing" say "you've made a road") or state what you like (I like the way that you're using your calm voice) or even exchange "I like the way that you are..." for "thank you for..." - but this can also trigger the negative praise or an oppositional reaction, so depends on the child. As lastlines said, showing interest, joining in are also good ways to show that you like something without directly praising. You can say something nice about him to somebody else within his hearing which can take away the pressure of how to react.

It's not going to be all low self esteem. Of course low self esteem can and does interact with pretty much every difficulty that there is - whether neurological, circumstantial or physical.

to you OP. What you've described sounds very very hard. No advice just wanted you to know I feel for you and can totally understand how you could feel the way you do. I hope tomorrow is a better day for you, you've gotten some great advice (and some frankly judgey advice that I would ignore). It's obvious you care for your child and want to find the answers.

I understand where you're coming from too, OP. DS2 is not yet as difficult to deal with as your son appears to be, but he's only 2.6 - but since he could move (13m) his sole aim in life seems to be to hurt his big brother. DS1 is a gentle soul, and wouldn't willingly hurt a fly - DS2 seems to love him and misses him when he's at school, but his "love" for him always seems to be manifested by jumping on him, kicking or punching him, or even biting him. He's given Ds1 some really nasty pinch bites, with no provocation other than them rolling round on the floor together, usually after DS2 has wrestled Ds1 to the floor and jumped on him.

I too have worried that he might have psychopathic tendencies, as has DH - we don't really think so but some of the things he does are just so awful to DS1! I also found it very interesting that DS2 would notice when I wasn't happy about something (usually DS2 hurting either Ds1 or myself) and he'd put on a big fakey grin to try and get me to smile back at him.

So far he's not hurt anyone outside of our family and I hope he never does - but I worry about it, and him!

I wouldn't say that Ds2 has any reason to be jealous of Ds1 - in fact, if anything, it would be the other way around as Ds1 was 5 when Ds2 was born, and so was almost immediately treated as an older brother with more responsibility, with me expecting him to understand that Ds2 now needed more of my time. Ds1 has been brilliant with him, despite the beating up situation - and they do play well together, so long as I can stop them rough-housing too much and stop Ds2 biting.

I'm watching with interest - I don't yet think Ds2 has anything diagnosable but we'll see how things go - I've noticed a couple of interesting things he does that might be indicative in the future but may equally be nothing.

Re. the perfectionism - it may be symptomatic but it may not either - I suffer from that a little myself and would also "not try" rather than try and risk failure. I've mostly got over it now, but it held me back for a while as I wouldn't hand in homework that I couldn't get "right", or do to my own satisfaction. Not helpful!

I think you are doing well to recognise that he has these behaviours and want to do what you can to change them; I also understand your negative feelings towards him but I, along with others, can only urge you to do your best to overcome them and let him know that you still love him whatever, even if you don't like his behaviours (I'm sure you already do this though :) )

Yes Bertie - my son at one stage went through a phase of not liking being praised for positive behaviour.

He sounds a bit insecure, causing his attention-seeking/boundary-testing/putting himself down for contradiction.

Is there something that he likes doing that he can become an 'expert' in and therefore always have something that he would 'win' at compared to other children? - maybe that would help him cope better with sometimes losing at other things.

Does he get power over interactions with other people in a controlled way ever - like picking what you are all going to have for dinner at home (from a few plausible options), what you will buy a classmate for a birthday present, etc? - maybe he is seeing other children as a bit of a threat/rival for your affection on some level, hence wanting to sabotage them.

I'm sorry I want to be supportive but your replies are really annoying me OP. You're SO down on him, negative and seemingly apathetic about the idea that your child may have a condition that completely explains all the issues you are describing. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that idea though, just moan about him. I can't see much about anything you plan to do about it either; you'll chat to his teacher then you suppose you might go to the GP......

Fwiw I have TWO dc with ASD amongst other conditions and your descriptions sound exactly like them and behaviours they have displayed. Less so these days as both have good support.

It's hard work, no one is denying that but you seem locked into a relentlessly negative cycle of criticising your small child for behaviours that it seems clear he cannot help. Please try to move past your current mind set, maybe see the GP for yourself too? Your ds needs you to shake yourself up a bit and start looking for more proactive explanations than he's just a nasty child.

"Grouchy, miserable, hard work, awkward"

That's just in ONE post with absolutely nothing firm as yet as to what you plan to do about his behaviour and your relentlessly negative attitude towards him.

It would be great if you get some professional help OP. I don't know your DS so can't comment but I think a couple of consultations with someone like a child psychotherapist would be great to clarify what's really going on. No "condition" / "diagnosis" answers all questions and even if there is a "diagnosis" that would explain some of it you'd still be best off doing some serious thinking of what's going on between you and your son, in the relationship between the 2 of you I mean. It's not a matter of blaming anyone, it's a matter of understanding more about what's going on & finding ways forward. Sometimes even small shifts can make extraordinary changes. PM if you want more info about good child psychotherapists.

NickiF give the poor woman a chance! She came on here being open and honest - loads of people have recognised her DS behaviours with our own children with asd/spd. She's had to take all that information in. And I for one know that when I finally accepted my DS was different and responded differently and people gave me an ear - EVERYTHING spilled out. Years and years of difficulty spilled out in about an hour. It probably sounded like I hated my DS too. Except nothing could be further than the truth.

Let's be fair and give the OP some time to read and digest the posts, digest the suggestions for assessment. If she comes back in a year posting the same having tried nothing and not sought help - then yeah, I'd say that's the time to sa she's ignored advice.

It's not about giving her a chance. She's not responding positively in any way. Preferring to keep criticising her child relentlessly. How about OP gives her child a chance? He's five!

I am pretty sure ds1's last teacher in mainstream thought he was a horrible child psychopath destined for a life-time in prison. He is now described by his teachers as "adorable", "a pleasure to teach" and my favourite from his report last summer "a breadth of fresh air through the school". He is the same child but the difference is his SEN are now fully acknowledged and he is very well supported. So no I don't believe children are born horrible and I would be looking for causes.

The reality though is that most probably if the OP's DS had serious / obvious / entrenched issues, these would be evident at school too and would have been pointed out by SENCO or teacher. It's a really great sign that he's doing well at school, that's reason for optimism, and in any case he's just 5 and there is much reason to hope that he can change & that the OP can find slightly different ways with him too. As I said I don't know the DS and can't comment on that but no diagnosis explains everything (even though a diagnosis can be useful in some cases) & there's always scope for improvement / space for thinking in terms of the family relationships.

I'm afraid that's not true Still. It's very common for children with conditions such as ASD can mask them extremely well at school and meltdown strenuously at home. And vice versa. My ds couldn't manage at school at ALL. My dd however manages wonderfully at school and let's it all out at home. I'm not sure which I prefer........

NickiFury, that's why I suggested a consultation or two with experienced professionals. In terms of the range of children's problems though, if a child were 'just horrible' in the entrenched way that the OP describes that would have definitely been spotted by school as her DS would be creating problems with other kids. There is a serious difference between being 'just horrible' and subtle signs of ASD that I agree need professional advice.

What I'm saying is that there's so much scope for hope!! He's only 5 for goodness sake. I certainly don't believe children are 'born bad' whatever that means and I know from experience that children and families can change significantly (regardless of diagnosis: this view is relevant to ASD children too; not that they become non-ASD, but that behaviour / emotional response can be supported).

still - total myth that teachers are good at picking up SEN such as AS particularly at age 5. Lot's of children with AS/HFA develop very adept masking strategies at school then fall apart at home. More obvious as they get older and the social gap between them and their peers widens. Certainly, for my two no teachers raised any issues until juniors even when we asked fairly direct questions as we had concerns about social interactions. They were diagnosed at 10 and are now both in specialist schools.

Make a reward chat, but make sure it rewards good behaviour while punishing bad. If he gets 10 positive stickers or whatever and only 2 or less negative stickers he can have a treat, this he can use to get something small or put in a treat bank and save up for something big like a day out! If he has more than 2 negative stickers and a positive sticker then you don't count those positive stickers and he has to start from 0 again!

I find it really sad that people are more prepared to accept that a child is 'just horrible' or has entrenched & serious SEN rather than be prepared to consider that there is scope to think carefully (with a professional, as a starting point) about what's going on in a wider way. Children at 5 have much much scope for change for the better under all circumstances. And yes of course sometimes that involves a diagnosis too, as part of the thinking.

I've never in all my years of practice, by the way, seen a mini-psychopath at 5 who can't be helped. There's no such thing. There are indeed children with very serious aggressive / violent /even sadistic behaviours but they can certainly be helped, with the parents very much involved in the process too. But 5 is so young!!! And I can bet that this boy knows very well how his mother sees him.

Hello op your post really resonates with me, I have an only dd (now 9yo) and she has always been quite umm demanding. Constant tantrums, easily frustrated, very competitive etc

I haven't read tat so apologies if this has already been suggested but I wonder if your son has some sensory issues? I certainly think my dd does esp around clothes, textures, smells and some foods.

I still struggle with my dd at times, it can be very wearing as she becomes very negative and defeatist. At your ds's age she was also very jealous - I think that was a phase though as much much better now!!