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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU to find it disgusting that gypsies have taken over a school playground

808 replies

Adizzylass2014 · 04/04/2015 22:17

whilst attending my best friends wedding today in a little village I was horrified to see that gypsies had taken over the school playground. There was rubbish all over the floor, children and dogs running all over the place and scantily clad women puffing away.
why a school playground, these people have no morals. The poor caretaker is going to have his work cut out for him as there was at least 15 caravans! Angry

OP posts:
Sparklingbrook · 08/04/2015 13:41

Xposts PJ. I am trying to understand really I am, but I don't understand the toilet thing. Sad

landrover · 08/04/2015 13:54

There are dedicated sites around, its called The Caravan Club!

landrover · 08/04/2015 13:56

www.caravanclub.co.uk/membership/join-us

bigfam · 08/04/2015 14:14

I'm sure not one of you would put your own families health above people you didn't know (people who, it feels like to them, are treating them awfully)
If travellers were given the amount of leniency that everyone believes they'd build their sights left right and centre regardless of what anyone said.

bigfam · 08/04/2015 14:14

*sites

Sparklingbrook · 08/04/2015 14:19

I don't know what you mean by that last post bigfam. But I don't want to say anything more if I understand it correctly.

bigfam · 08/04/2015 14:20

Not denying the fact that sometimes they leave places an absolute tip, but I've not been to one site that IS LEGAL, and it's been a mess.
The solution would be to build more sites with the correct facilities that are needed, but there aren't enough available, when they consider building more it's so heavily opposed that in the end they're not built, and the problems with illegally pulling somewhere continue, along with the waste and rubbish

BodleianLibrarianook · 08/04/2015 14:45

There's lots of sites around where I live and most you wouldn't know are there.
It seems to me that it's a different group that cause all of the anti social problems.
I have witnessed people (workmen) having the piss taken out of them for being taxpayers?!? Hmm
Asbestos and fridges etc. Being dumped, meaning that an entire park was closed for months due to contamination.
Dual carriageway roads being closed for horse races.
I think some spoil it for the rest, but every time I see a bunch of caravans on a local beauty spot my heart sinks.

hazeyjane · 08/04/2015 15:26

..but I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned, part of the reason they don't use the toilets in the caravans is actually because it's a big health hazard...... if you put yourself if their shoes, would you rather risk your and your families health, or just try to be rid of the waste as quickly as possible?!*

I'm sure not one of you would put your own families health above people you didn't know (people who, it feels like to them, are treating them awfully)

I don't know if you read my posts, Bigfam, but I think there is a bigger health hazard in my dh having to clear up human waste, and accidentally strimming through bags of shit which flies up into his face.

Are you honestly saying, it is acceptable to leave piles of (literal) crap around in public spaces where children play, and people have to work, because it is just impossible to dispose of the waste in a way that it doesn't cause harm to the public's health and safety. Because if that's the case we might as well go back to the days of tipping our waste containers out of the window onto the street below!

GoodbyeToAllOfThat · 08/04/2015 15:42

bigfam, are you suggesting that we should all just accommodate traveler poo in public areas because they don't have any other options?

Unbelievable.

bigfam · 08/04/2015 15:51

Yes that's exactly right!

No, people are asking why they do it it, that could be one of the reasons.
Another reason could just be that they're disgusting, but all communities have a minority that bring them down. Like all the threads I've seen about the drug addicts that leave their infected needles all over the place.....
Yes there are travellers that are generally bad but it's always more publicised if something happens and by chance it's 'travellers'

ApplePaltrow · 08/04/2015 16:09

Feminine

apple going back a few pages... But honestly?
"be more like the Amish"
What on earth are you basing that on?

The Amish have their own community, their own rules and are very connected to the land. They stop education for most at 14, I think. Yet, they are hardworking, industrious and well liked. They don't shit in bushes and I bet they know how to dig a latrine.

Sorry to be mean but if travelers have been doing this for centuries, shouldn't it be their responsibility to know how to dispose of sanitary waste correctly? Latrines have been used for hundreds of years.

PeachyPants · 08/04/2015 16:14

I'm sorry BigFam but there can be no justification for leaving human waste and san pro on playing fields and paths. Like the people who leave used needles in public it is disgusting and shows a complete disregard for fellow human beings.

ApplePaltrow · 08/04/2015 16:22

TheNewStatesman Tue 07-Apr-15 03:00:14
"And if they are all very well educated, why do statistics say otherwise - 60% of travellers having no formal education at all (over 3 times that of the rest of the population)."

What is happening here is that there are two definitions of traveller/Traveller--the people who actually travel (all or part of the year), vs people who identify as Traveller ethnicity and whose parents or grandparents or great-grandparents travelled, but they themselves do not actually travel.

Nope, the statistics I quoted were based on how people identified themselves on the census. Most of those travellers were settled and on the census "only 24% of Gypsy or Irish Travellers lived in caravans or other mobile or temporary structures". Most lived in houses. Despite including "settled" travellers, 60% of over 16s had no formal qualifications. Worst of any minority group.

Settled or not, that's not great. It's sad that people are so busy defending the right to dump poo in playgrounds and call us all bigots that they won't even address the real issue - the squandering of human potential that is this "lifestyle".

www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/what-does-the-2011-census-tell-us-about-the-characteristics-of-gypsy-or-irish-travellers-in-england-and-wales-/sty-gypsy-or-irish-travellers.html?WT.z_content=post&WT.z_format=nugget&WT.z_taxonomy=population&WT.z_trigger=proactive

twosides · 08/04/2015 17:48

I used to work for some years as a Traveler Liaison Officer for the local authority so for many years had very close contact with the Traveler and Gypsy Community; both on unauthorized encampments where I carried out welfare enquiries and being an advocate for Settled families on local authority pitches and those who were settled 'in brick' in houses.

I have hesitated to post because I have been in a unique position to see both sides: that of the general public and seeing things from the perspective of Travellers.

Traveller and Gypsy culture is very different to ours and their life is to an extent an anachronism - how we were around a hundred years ago - although the majority of Gypsies and Travellers are now settled and indistinguishable from the general population.

For nomadic Travellers it is hard to understand it from an outsiders point of view; and being a nomadic Traveller is a very hard life - life expectancy is very low, health and diet very poor and education very low. Educationally Traveller children have the lowest school attendance and qualifications and most leave school at 11 to become home schooled (for a boy it means picking up a trade from his father such as scrap metal dealing / paving and for a girl it means taking on a huge amount of cleaning the trailer every day and childcare for other siblings). One stat I read was that only 2% of Travellers live beyond sixty years of age.

There are very strong gendered roles - just as there are in other religions or cultures. Birth control is frowned upon especially for Irish Travellers who are mainly Catholic and very strictly so. Girls must be virgin when they marry and must keep an immaculate reputation and must be isolated from the opposite sex (I knew of one father who turned up at A&E who insisted that his teenage daughter have a certificate to say her hymen was intact because some rumor had been put about that she had been talking to boys and she wouldn't be married as a result). Traveller women may dress what we would view as provocatively but it is a very strict look but no touching policy.

Both girls and boys leave school around 11- not only because traveling and education are very difficult to do but to stop them picking up the immoral values of the settled population and the very real fear of being assimilated into the general population.

Girls are married off very early - around 16- 18 is usual and boys are a little older. A girl does not really have what we would view as a childhood - her whole childhood is preparation for married life- helping her mum with the six hour cleaning of the inside and outside of the caravan every day and cooking and minding the younger children. When a girl is married she is not allowed off a Traveller site unless chaperoned and certainly would be forbidden to speak alone with a man not closely related. The expectation is that she will bear many children - at least five or six and I have known women in their mid thirties with 14 living children.

The pressure of constant cleaning (and I mean keeping living conditions inside the caravan as sparkling), isolation and many children living in a very small space means that women frequently are on antidepressants and are very stressed.

Gypsies and Travelers are subject to a lot of everyday racism, and in turn view gorgers with intolerance and suspicion. In their view gorja women are sluts because we sleep with men outside of wedlock and we are filthy because even a clean house to us is filthy to a Traveller who deep cleans their home every single day. They also view our culture as immoral and are very protective of their children as they view our culture being overrun by paedophiles and child murderers (although tbh in the result of operation yewtree they have a point).

As to the mess left from unauthorized encampments; very few encampments out of the hundreds I dealt with left nothing behind. There was usually litter, rubbish and human waste but it would be in proportion to the size of the encampment - large encampments of over 60 caravans would leave trade waste etc and have heavy human soiling and cost around £6000 to clear while small encampments a few hundred pounds. I understand that this caused immense annoyance to the local population and I was always asked why they did this.

To Travellers the outside is not as important as the inside living quarters. No Traveller would have an inside chemical toilet as they view this as abhorrent and disgustingly germy. To them it was far healthier to go to the toilet in the open as nature intended - and they would go usually in the footpaths and bushes surrounding encampments discreetly.

As to provision for Traveller sites; there used to be a legal duty to provide Traveller sites by local authorities which was taken away. Now there are around 6000 fewer pitches than nomadic Travellers which means there are few places they can stay legally. Travellers would never go to tourist caravan parks (and tbh I can see few tourist parks who would accept them due to perceived antisocial behavior), so the problem of unauthorized encampments is likely to continue.

As to why they they have to travel - both Gypsies and Travellers have a very long history of travelling (over a thousand years for Gypsies and two thousand years for Irish Travellers) it is their culture and they feel the same way about being forced into brick as we would feel being forced out of our houses to take on a nomadic life.

hazeyjane · 08/04/2015 18:20

Twosides, in your role, did you ever visit people that were negatively affected by a site? I found it peculiar, when we were targeted by people from a large encampment, that despite many calls to the police, we never got a visit from anyone who represented the travelers. Us and one other family were the only people affected (we were the only people who lived in close proximity). I know there were representatives, as they were on the news and in the press liasing with and for the travellers.

To them it was far healthier to go to the toilet in the open as nature intended - and they would go usually in the footpaths and bushes surrounding encampments discreetly.

Unfortunately discretion was never evident at the sites we have had nearby, surely it would be possible to dig a hole? Mind you if someone had dug a hole in dh's sportsfields to do a crap, he would be furious! Also, doing a poo in a hedge is one thing, leaving sanitary towels and toilet paper like grim bunting all along the hedge is another.

They also view our culture as immoral and are very protective of their children

This obviously didn't extend to the group of young men and children who threw lumps of brick towards our house whilst I was sat outside with dd1 in her pram, or the people who attempted to break into dd1's nursery, who obviously didn't give too much of a shit about my children.

....they view our culture being overrun by paedophiles and child murderers (although tbh in the result of operation yewtree they have a point).

Jeez, really!

WorraLiberty · 08/04/2015 18:26

Both girls and boys leave school around 11- not only because traveling and education are very difficult to do but to stop them picking up the immoral values of the settled population and the very real fear of being assimilated into the general population.

When you say both 'boys' and girls, are you saying that they think boys having sex before marriage (for example) is immoral? I've always had the distinct impression (rightly or wrongly) that boys could pretty much sleep around, just like a lot of teenagers do before marriage?

Also, I imagine there is a fear of the girls in particular, realising that there might be more to life than cleaning/cooking/child rearing? and that if they work hard enough at school, they'll have more choices available WRT their futures?

GoodbyeToAllOfThat · 08/04/2015 18:30

I have some empathy for any bohemian spirit who would like to lead a nomadic existence - modern life has made this pretty well impossible. Every parcel of land now has ownership, and the owners have property rights. This is obviously a result of having 7 billion people on the planet, we all have to deal with officious regulations in our day to day lives.

Someone mentioned the Amish a bit upthread - this is actually an interesting comparison, because they're an ethnic minority that is largely defined by their lifestyle.

The Amish have been successful in their "defection" from modern life (I'm speaking of the US) largely by virtue of their public perception. They don't have the same issues that the travelers have.

twosides · 08/04/2015 18:45

hazeyjane yes I did personally visit and answer the telephone to residents and businesses affected by an encampment. Our protocol was to visit the site as soon as we were notified and then visit those affected to answer their questions and give them an idea of how long the legal process to evict was likely to take. If it was a large encampment on a playing field for instance I would expect to answer thirty phone calls a day of complaints. And yes, I did empathise with them - I would try and ameliorate wastre by setting up daily rubbish collections and with v large encampments you do get a lot of noise nuisance and antisocial behavior.

For the most part however, most unauthorized encampments are very small - 2 or 3 caravans and not the big tens of caravans. For these, there were not many complaints or nuisance to residents - because small family groups traveling together didn't want to be noticed so park in inconspicuous or waste land.

I am sorry that you experienced aggression to you and your children - obviously all Travellers are like that.

The point is regarding their view of us and vice versa that there is prejudice and stereotyping on both sides.

Yes worra there is no censure for boys sleeping around (with non Traveller women) before and after marriage which contrasts with the rules for women - which let's face other cultures also have double standards

twosides · 08/04/2015 18:45

not

twosides · 08/04/2015 18:51

worra yes there is a fear that girls will realise there is more to life; however the problem is that to be a 'good' Traveller you have to rigidly stick to the gendered roles - because your whole cultural heritage is bound by doing things in a certain way; shunning the settled life, shunning formal education, embracing gendered roles and the only way you can hold on to this in the face of cultural assimilation is to cling on to this vigorously

WorraLiberty · 08/04/2015 19:06

So is it fair to say their parents prevent them from getting a senior school/college/university education, in order to preserve future travelling culture?

I mean are they afraid that if they allow them to be educated well, they might want to have a career and stop travelling, thus leading to it dying out if they choose other options that might be available to them?

Chesntoots · 08/04/2015 19:15

Twice a year on a very wide grass verge on my way to work a family pitch camp. They have a few horses, horsebox, bow topped caravan as well as four wheeled drive and modern van. They stay for a couple of weeks. When they leave all you will see is a couple of black refuse sacks the council pick up and a couple of areas of well munched grass.

On the other hand a group of about a dozen caravans turned up on the playing field in the large village next to mine. They were fighting in the pub, threatening towards shop workers and would literally walk off with other peoples property in front of their eyes and threaten them if they said anything. They stayed less than a week - our locals were obviously a lot harder than they were and didn't tolerate it.

As most people have said, twats are twats whatever their heritage and you are more likely to remember negatives than positives. My great grandmother was Romany and from what my grandma would tell me, her family would never have tolerated bad, aggressive or unsanitary behaviour.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 08/04/2015 19:31

Thanks very much indeed for sharin that, twosides - I don't know why you hesitated to post as personally I found your insight massively valuable

I wonder if I could ask you something I've previously posted but not had a proper answer too: What have you found the traveller community attitude to be towards any members who commit crimes against gorjas?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 08/04/2015 19:32

Oh, and please forgive typos!! Blush

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