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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To not want my DC around him?

235 replies

UseYourFingers · 26/03/2015 14:45

My sister has been with her partner for 9 years, getting married in December. He has a 17 year old daughter from a previous partner. Was chatting with the daughter and she mentioned it was her mums 30th birthday party coming up. I presumed I'd misheard but mentioned it to my sister, and she confirmed that her DP got a 13 year old girl pregnant WHEN HE WAS 20!

This has made me feel really ill.

We are supposed to be going to Barcelona for her hen weekend in June and her DP was going to have all the kids, including my DD who is 12.
I've told her I don't want this to happen anymore and it's caused a huge argument. I'm not to attend the wedding until I've apologised to him.

I feel really bad. He has babysat before and I feel that I should have been made aware of all this. I've lost all sense of trust towards him and my sister.

I'm not at all implying that he is a paedophile but I can't shake off the notion that at one point in his adult life he was sexually attracted to a child. He was in a relationship with the girl until their daughter was 3.

I don't know what to do or think. Has anyone got any advice?

OP posts:
LadyIsabellaWrotham · 28/03/2015 08:28

Not that I'd risk my 12 year old anywhere near this particular bastard, obviously.

peggyundercrackers · 28/03/2015 09:08

I get why your angry however I think Yabu by going to the police and kicking up a fuss when the man/mother & daughter seem happy with their relationship - I don't see you have any right to interfere with their relationship - go nc and move on. This happened 20yrs ago and you know absolutely nothing about it, your jumping to conclusions. This was 20yrs ago and things have changed drastically in those times.

I think your shocked that this kind of thing has happened but it's very common and the more time you go back the more common it was and absolutely nothing was done about it.

mumthetaxidriver · 28/03/2015 09:14

Has anyone thought that the reason that police didn't act 17 years ago was that the 12/13 girl refused to co-operate and give evidence against her boyfriend?
I know of such a case - a 14 yr old who went on to have 2 more children with a 28 yr old and stayed together for 9 years.
The parents have tried to make this "respectable" by letting him move in and be a father to the child.
Why does the OP think that the mother of the now 17 yr old will want to co-operate now any more than before? Surely if contact has continued this long (she is going to be at the wedding?) its likely they still have an amicable "relationship". I'm not saying that it shouldn't have been prosecuted at the time - parents/SS/police all at fault but not sure that anything can be done by the OP other than safeguard her own DD.

mumthetaxidriver · 28/03/2015 09:16

X-posted with Peggy - I agree completely!

FreudiansSlipper · 28/03/2015 09:20

I get why your angry however I think Yabu by going to the police and kicking up a fuss when the man/mother & daughter seem happy with their relationship - I don't see you have any right to interfere with their relationship - go nc and move on. This happened 20yrs ago and you know absolutely nothing about it, your jumping to conclusions. This was 20yrs ago and things have changed drastically in those times.

This attitude allowed abusers to get away with abusing only now we are willing to confront the issue. He was attracted to a child and had a sexual relationship with her what are the conclusions to jump too Confused there are none its fact

Lots of girls at my school were in what they saw as relationships with men yes they looked older after spending some time with them you would soon realise they were not but of course that was ignored or the men were the ones being manipulated Hmm how tragic we still excuse these men

magoria · 28/03/2015 10:02

OP is going to the police to find out if this man has any convictions not to report him.

There is a difference.

This may not be the only time he has done this and she has no way of knowing as the people minimising aren't going to tell her.

At 19 this man had sex with a 12 year old and got her pregnant.

At 20 he was living with a 13 year old an presumably still having sex.

At 21 he was living with a 14 year old and presumably still having sex.

At 22 he may have been living with a 15 year old and still having sex.

Her parents condoned this.

What bloody childhood did this woman have with this behaviour normalised.

That he still doesn't see a problem with this means he doesn't see he did anything wrong.

So OP is perfectly in her rights to check what else he may have done.

DollyTwat · 28/03/2015 10:05

Andrew sorry to be pedantic, but you can enquire using Claire's la about someone you are worried about being with someone dangerous. That was the point. Her father felt he should have been able to find out

Andrewofgg · 28/03/2015 10:36

DollyTwat I am sure you are right - although the police have a discretion about it and might not exercise it in favour of the OP. In any event they probably have nothing to disclose.

mumthetaxidriver · 28/03/2015 11:02

Sorry I thought that I had read the whole of the previous page but missed where the OP stated that she wanted to check the records not report. I understand why she would want to do this - but as with other posters feel that only her DS would be eligible to receive this information - but maybe I am wrong.

mumthetaxidriver · 28/03/2015 11:03

Her DSIS not DS

peggyundercrackers · 28/03/2015 11:05

Freudian my GM was married in this county when she was 12... She was married to my GF until he died when he was in his 80s. As I say times change...

Andrewofgg · 28/03/2015 11:12

peggy Slightly o//t but there is a problem here because under the previous law sex with a girl under 16 (but 13 or up) was called "unlawful sexual intercourse" and the word "unlawful" meant that no offence was committed if the two were lawfully married. Which of course the could not be in the UK or anywhere else if they were domiciled in any part of the UK - but if their domicile, their home (nothing to do with citizenship) was in another country with a lower marriage age they could be.

When the law was changed in 2002 the Minister in charge in the Lords (Lady Scotland) was very clear and rather xenophobic about "not wanting such people having sex in our country". Frankly, if a French couple, lawfully married in France where a girl can marry at 15, want to come on holiday here, what concern is it of ours if they sleep together?

FreudiansSlipper · 28/03/2015 11:25

We are taking about 30 years ago it was a crime then so no one can use the excuse of not understanding wrong from right

I was 12 then a year or so later many girls from my school were being groomed by older men they thought they were in relationships they were being abused by older men who took advantage of their naivety, often their desire to want to appear grown up and some who craved love and attention it is easy to do when society turns a blind eye

A blind eye was often turned because we did not as a society want to confront this issue and also the social conditioning that girls this age can be so manipulative this is still apparent

Even if the the mother is on taking terms with him that does no mean she was not abused many who has been abused are unaware or not able to accept and for some it brings very conflicting feelings not everyone hates their abuser and many keep quite through shame or simply not to create an issue

SylvaniansAtEase · 28/03/2015 11:27

'Go no contact and move on' - no, OP intends to do all she can to protect her potential nieces and nephews of the future, and indeed any other child who comes into close contact with this man, by going to the police and social services. Absolutely the right decision.

If this were me, I would indeed go no contact - I honestly don't think I could continue with any sort of normal relationship with my sister now with her marrying this man, or even just in the knowledge that she's fine with the concept of men sleeping with twelve year olds, so ok with it in fact that she's marrying one. And I'd be INCANDESCENT that she kept that knowledge from me and allowed my daughter to be cared for by him. I would not forgive her for that.

But I'd also go to social services, tell them the history and also that it was condoned and minimised by my sister who intended to marry and have children with him. I would go to the police and ask their advice too on options for protecting future children from him, and any avenues open which might be able to get him on the sex offenders register.

Andrewofgg · 28/03/2015 17:25

They won't prosecute him now: and no prosecution, no conviction, not on the SOR. OP can only protect her own family by keeping her DD from every being alone with this man, and then it is up to her how much contact she keeps up with her sister.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 29/03/2015 11:07

No statute of limitation - he could still be prosecuted. I was involved in a case where a man was sent down 20 years after fathering a baby with his 13 yrs old step daughter.

Just because the soc services not interested then does not mean they would not be now. It is in everyone's interest that people inform social services. (apart from sex offenders' interest!).

There may have been many reasons why this was not picked up... Even assuming soc services were aware. When i worked in child protection many ocassions people rang up assuming we knew about a particular case and we had nada!

Sometimes, and tragically, it is as simple as not enough staff being available to investigate so they are not actioned...it may have been they were chasing other more on- the- loose child sex offenders.. He, amazingly, was living with the child he abused, so in all likelihood, proved a marginal less risk.

Prosecutions to go ahead have to stand a reasonable chance of conviction (the evidence - his daughter..if they won't concent to dna, birth certficates and letters at the time have been used in prosecutions), and to be in public interest. (keeping tabs on a most definitely paedophile IS in the public interest.

You are dead right - keep your daughter away from him!! If he has any other kids/contact with kids please let soc services know.

To those saying let him have his say... Wtf!?? ! He wants a chance to groom you, like he clearly has your sister... He will minimise his own role and maximise her role..I guarantee he will say some/all of the following...

Eg ' she looked older, I was young at the time, she led me on, I am a red-blooded male.... Her parents did not seem to mind etc etc.

All statements that are sexual offending supportive. He was an ADULT who had sex with a 12 yr old child... No excuses!

Please do not be groomed by him.

Please ensure that social services are aware for two reasons ;

  1. He may be trying to babysit other children... Who may be at risk NOW
  1. Soc services and GP are able to place alerts on file so if your sister becomes pregnant they can monitor... Any child they have will have, and must have, any contact with this paedophile /hebephile closely monitored..

Doesn't matter whether he's a paedophile or hebephile, he still has a history of child rape.

Whatever anyone says paedophiles are paedophiles for life... There is NO cure.
There is plenty of forensic literature to support this.

This is a clear current and future child protection issue...

Good Luck!

NorahDentressangle · 29/03/2015 12:05

Do you work in the child protection field IamthefieldsAvocado ?

Not querying what you say, just wondering about their being NO cure.
There is a prison near here where, gossip says, there are many sex offenders. The are released after their term, I'd assumed that treatment had changed them, but possibly not.

Jackie0 · 29/03/2015 19:50

But there is no cure, is there?
I would never have thought that just because a child rapist served his sentence he was changed.

NorahDentressangle · 30/03/2015 07:03

Just come across this on BBC news about Whatton prison.

Eventually, most of Whatton's sex offenders will go back into the community. According to Saunders, their re-offending rate is surprisingly low - 6% compared with 50% for the general prison population. Ultimately, she says public protection is paramount - they must make sure that people are kept safe.

HERE

It's common sense that you couldn't imprison child rapists then just let them out again, I also knew you couldn't keep them in indefinitely or the country would be littered with prisons full of 90 years olds.

Writerwannabe83 · 30/03/2015 07:32

When me and my best friend were 14 years old (only sixteen years ago) she admitted to me that she was in a sexual relationship with her mother's partner. It had already been going on for about six months by the time she told me.

She told the guy that I knew about their relationship and so whenever I was round there he would start propositioning me as well and asking if I wanted to get in on the action (his actual words).

There was also an 11 year old girl living in the house and a 5 year old boy. Quite often they'd leave me downstairs looking after the other children whilst they went upstairs and had sex.

In hindsight I should have stopped going round or I should have spoken out but I was just a child myself and seeing how open he was about what was going on I concluded that what they were doing couldn't be too bad really otherwise he'd be trying to keep it secret. So I just kept quiet and let it continue.

About 5 months after she told me what was going on she realised she was pregnant. She told her mother about the pregnancy who eventually dragged the truth out of her about who the father was.

Her mom's partner was 35 years old.

My friend terminated the pregnancy but the abuse wasn't reported. Her mother obviously kicked the guy out and ended the relationship but she didn't go to the police.

My friend and the man continued to meet up behind her mother's back though for many more months until he. ended it because he'd met someone else. Who knows how old she turned out to be?

BathtimeFunkster · 30/03/2015 08:21

It is ironic on one level that he agrees to *babysit" a 12 year old, who is the same age as the child he had sex with as an adult man. How can he accept on one hand that a 12 year old isn't an adult and needs to be minded if her mother is away, and on the other hand can consent to sex with an adult.

There's nothing ironic about it.

He's a paedophile and has done what paedophiles do - found himself a trusted position with unfettered access to children of the age he finds attractive.

How common is it for a man to look after "all the children" alone for an entire weekend so his fiancée can go on her hen night?

The fact that this creep has set himself up as the family babysitter would make my blood run cold.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 30/03/2015 10:01

Absolutely Bathtime! ^

'Sucessful' offenders are often charming and always ' volunteer', for often tiresome time-consuming tasks eg volunteer to collect kids from parties.. Gives them a chance to groom several kids at a time and check them out ..Volunteer to look after a large group of kids where their mums go on a hen partyHmm. So they are often well- liked - remember they will often groom the adults first. This is purely to access their preferred age of children. The sucessful abusers you will never guess... Until it's too late... They will also never be caught, therefore not on any register... There will often be no gossip about them as often they are regarded as being beyond reproach eg religious figures, teachers, youth leaders, or your kids ' favourite uncle...

Sorry if I'm putting folk off their break fast.

Sometimes they will 'reconaissance the land' ,this can often be over months, sometimes years. For example, work out how pliable everyone is in a community or family, are there any large angry men around that are going to beat him to pulp etc etc. Is there a large local extended family looking out for the kids? Pointless target. They will often be very detailed in their investigations... They will target the young mum who is desperate to have a night out with friends, or the woman who is very chaotic, so kids are often left unsupervised. Don't forget they don't have to be alone very long to be abused. It can be a few seconds. As said these are often the blokes everyone trusts.

Also, age is no barrier, frail health is no barrier. These people are sadly very skilled. One case I knew :this 89 year old with a walking frame was targeting young children in an amusement arcade... Always choosing the ones who had been left for 15 minutes whilst their parents pop to shops. From approach to offence in one case (from cctv) was less than 90 seconds. Sickening... (of course this elderly chap needed help with his shopping).
Another distressing case:an 8 year old was digitally penetrated in tje middle of an airport lounge less than 30 feet away from her parents... She was only standing looking at the departure board...

In terms of treatment... Paedophiles will often go through some sort of group, sometimes individual, treatment in prison.. Some won't offend again... Some will ans won't be caught. They will however, always be sexually attracted to kids. They will have extensive work over their triggers for offending. For example men are told of they are meeting women online not to go out with women with kids and definitely not visit houses with kids. They would also be told for example not to drink heavily as alcohol is usually a predictive factor, the last barrier to abuse. If you don't drink you are more likely to be able to stop offending.

Abusers inside families have more successful treatment outcomes... Ie less likely to re offend, than those who offend outside the family.

There is a whole argument as to whether offenders should go through some of the training, it can make them more successful offenders.... Sadly it's impossible to know which ones these men are.

All horribly depressing!

OP you are doing a good job, your instinct is right.

If your sister starts accusing you of troublemaking... I would say something like...

' You knew your partner raped an 11 year old.. When he was 20. You chose not to tell me, and then YOU encouraged him to babysit your 12 year old niece.. My daughter.. You seem to think this is ok. I have every right to be furious with you at this complete lack of care and putting her at such risk of sexual assault, for our family s much loved child. '

If she starts defending him I think the broken record technique would be good....

' You are being groomed too'
She is! This is why women marry child sex offenders. The offender and the woman will ALWAYS justify and MINIMISE the offending behaviour. It's too much to think your partner finds a 4 yr old sexually attractive and acted on this. This is called cognitive dissonance, so they will minimise it to a more 'acceptable narrative' - he was drunk, depressed, abused as a child. Or there was no physical evidence, the child lied etc etc.

And : 'You are marrying a child rapist...i dont need to hear his excuses'.

Do tell her any kids she has with him will be monitored by social services.. This will not be options.. and in all likelihood he wont be able to live with them.

anothernumberone · 30/03/2015 20:03

Very insightful post Iamthedevil.

Jackie0 · 31/03/2015 18:55

I second that,that's the smartest post I've read in ages.

BadEmployee · 31/03/2015 20:09

Malcolm Gladwell wrote about how abusers groom in his article In Plain View.

An acquaintance got pregnant at 14 by her then 20-year-old "boy"friend. They ended up having more children. They broke up under acrimonious circumstances and she eventually acquired sole custody of the children as he was mistreating them during access visits.

At the time, I asked a midwife friend if they had a duty of care to report him (after all, birth cert + pregnancy = proof an offence was committed, surely?). Midwife friend said that unless girl's parents pushed a prosecution, it never happened. I asked the girl herself about it more recently, and she said she was as much at fault as he was, and she was old enough to know better. Sad Even after what he had done to the DCs, she 'd never have him prosecuted.

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