To ignore the upstairs neighbour banging on his floor about crying baby

[MrsHende]

Baby hates getting dressed and usually screams her way through the 5-6 minute process. Twice our upstairs neighbours has banged on their floor, presumably because of the noise. Both times were after 7.30 and before 8am, once this morning and once last week, on a week day.

Who IBU?

(My mum thinks I should change the baby in a different room, possibly the best solution for everyone's blood pressure!)

theboat

Raising a puppy in a tiny flat is not so different to having a baby.

Yes it is. It is entirely different.

A baby is a member of our species, a human being, what we all were once.

A dog is a pet. You don't need it.

Oh let's not start with the whole babies vs animals thing that never ends well

Honeycrest, no-one expects 'complete silence' in a flat but most expect to be able sleep uninterrupted, relax, enjoy their home. A crying baby next door can be very very stressful and annoying. Babies have a piercing cry that penetrates thin walls. When you can't stop baby crying the least you can do is apologise to neighbours, because at end of day you chose to raise a baby in that environment, they didn't. Your decision impacts their wellbeing too. Most people are more tolerant if you show you care. And if you don't care about your neighbours' wellbeing, close-proximity living probably isn't for you!

Andrewof, many dog-owners would disagree that a dog is just a pet and not needed. Is a baby 'needed' in a different way? For many dogs are a source of companionship, comfort, part of family, even a 'substitute baby' for some childless couples.

I appreciate the point about tenants being evicted for puppy barking but not baby crying, but why is a baby crying any less annoying or disruptive than puppy noise?

My neighbours kids bedroom adjoins ours and most nights we get woken by screaming kids at 2am, 4 am whatever as well as ealy morning screaming for their parents. It's frustrating , especially as I work shifts ( including night shifts) and really need a good nights sleep on the nights I'm at home. I haven't said anything to them as I feel it must already be bad enough for them dealing with it. I just hope it stops soon as they get older.

theboat If you mean that nobody physically needs a baby as we all need food and water and air, you are right, but the same applies to a pet dog - and note, I mean pets and only pets.

Part of the family? Does anyone mourn a dead dog as they would the loss of a child? Given the canine lifespan most owners are going to outlive their dogs: in the case of the women of child-bearing age who form the bulk of MN, all of them barring tragedy.

I understand why some childless couples think of their dog as a "substitute baby" - just as for some empty-nesters it "replaces" the children who have grown up and moved on - but those quotation marks are there for a reason. It's a dog, not a baby.

And the point of that is that you can legitimately expect neighbours to accept far, far more noise made by a real baby than by a "substitute".

why I don't think this type of flat is a sensible choice for someone with a baby

How amusing that you think this is all about 'choice'.

I have always had dogs, I love dogs, I love animals generally but it is absurd to claim parity between a dog and someone's child. Society recognises that human beings have all kinds of rights that animals don't, a baby is a person, nobody should have to apologise for their existence, as ifyourehoppyandyouknowit said a few pages back no one would be arguing that people should be apologising profusely for a relative with dementia who became distressed and called out.

I don't think you can claim parity between a baby and an elderly person with dementia either. It's not only the act of noise happening that's irritating when a baby cries - it's that it's shrill, loud, piercing, and persistent.

Well having spent several nights in hospital on a ward with a number of very distressed, confused elderly women who cried and shouted through the night I'd dispute that an older person crying is less disturbing than a baby trufflesnout. However what I would claim parity over is their personhood, that they couldn't help the noise they were making, that their carers cannot be expected to keep them quiet all the time and that no none should have to apologise for their existence.

Oh yes, I was offered the choice between a big detached house and a first floor flat, and chose the flat, of course I did

Well you can dispute it, but I'm still going to disagree that it's as annoying as a baby crying.

I think the idea of choice is an interesting one. One half is arguing that the parents have no choice about living in a flat and others should be understanding about noise; the other half is arguing that they had no choice about living in a flat or who their neighbours were and so others should be more empathetic about the noise they or their family creates.

A bit of empathy is needed on both sides maybe?

It's not half and half, there are two or three people on here complaining about babies crying and everyone else saying well what in the name of god do you suggest parents do to keep their babies silent?
A bit of common sense and more acceptance is required with those few who think they have more entitlement to live in flats than people with children and expect the world to change around them, specifically, tiny babies who don't know what they are doing and can't control their cries.

Who is disputing that though trufflesnout? For me the points of contention have been whether people with babies a.) shouldn't live in a flat b.) should soundproof their homes c.) should profusely apologise for the noise their baby makes. I think in this case the issue wouldn't have been posted in AIBU if the neighbour had raised the issue politely rather than banging on the floor. It's ironic given that this is essentially a parenting site but some threads on MN do seem have a vein of hostility and intolerance towards young children and their parents running through them.

I didn't mean literally half and half. Read it as "one side" if that helps.

I don't think anyone who finds it irritating expects the parent to magic the child into silence - or at least, I don't - but at least the acceptance that it is irritating would be a start. It's fine to want acceptance because you have a small baby and would appreciate some understanding, but it goes both ways surely?

It's not difficult to understand that the cry of a baby is annoying when it's waking you, and that's when you're the parent! It's so frustrating to be subjected to that noise when it isn't your child.

But the OP doesn't even know that they were banging because of the baby! They have banged twice, the baby cries for not very long and not very often. It could have easily been a coincidence but it's got a lot of parents up in arms about understanding and empathy. You can have all the empathy in the world and it doesn't make your child less annoying.

Re. the flats, the soundproofing, the apologising - it's gone both ways with people demanding those without children do all of those things. Each side of the argument is just as un-empathetic as the other, basically.

Who is disputing that though trufflesnout?

->

I'd dispute that an older person crying is less disturbing than a baby

you did, ILovePud

Totally get that, but people on here have blamed failing their exams on a neighbours crying baby which is ludicrous, and if that is the main problem what difference would profusely apologising, every single time, make? Doesn't help the neighbour sleep and doesn't shut your baby up.
Sorry but I'm not going to apologise for my child's existence. I can apologise for the noise but there's not a lot I can do about it or to reduce it and I will not be dictated to about where I 'should' live when I have children. Children are not always planned and parents don't always have a great amount of choice about where they live.
Neighbours shouldn't be so self absorbed to think the parents of a crying baby should consider them first. Parents of new babies have enough on their minds and their baby crying isn't directed at the neighbour. A few months and the faze of crying will pass.

Babies crying falls within the normal range of sounds that you have to accept as part and parcel of living in proximity to others, yes it's annoying but the crying baby is a human being too and that is their home. I think that given that it falls under the category of normal neighbourhood noise (as opposed to loud music or barking dogs which the LA would have the power to intervene over) then the onus really is on the person who has such an issue with it that they find it intolerable to make adjustments, that's not to say I wouldn't give a shit if my baby was disturbing the neighbour nor that I'd not be trying to stop the crying for the baby's sake and the neighbours but that's not always possible. As for people expecting neighbours to apologise, there's a difference between a baby who can't help crying and an ignorant neighbour banging on the floor.

I'd meant who is disputing that a little empathy is needed on both sides trufflesnout.

shouldn't be so self absorbed to think the parents of a crying baby should consider them first

Not what I suggested - or think - at all. Nor did I say I thought the OP should apologise - nor do I think anyone should apologise.

Your dismissal about exams and neighbours crying babies and how ludicrous that idea is unfair. Yes your neighbours should be empathetic to your foray into parenthood and be understanding that it is difficult - but that does not mean you should be obtuse about how irritating it can be to be subjected to a babys cry at night - no matter how 'normal' that noise is.

Some people have more going on in their lives than having a baby - shock horror. Empathy and understanding goes both ways.

I'd meant who is disputing that a little empathy is needed on both sides

Sorry, didn't realise. Those who are saying they don't give a shit about how their neighbours are coping with the sleep disturbance - and especially those who are saying they don't give a shit and expect understanding from neighbours in return.

I agree with Trufflesnout that empathy goes both ways... if you expect neighbours to be tolerant and sympathetic to your baby crying, you need to empathise with what you are putting neighbours through.

Moomin I disagree that most people have no choice where they live. We all have choices in life... these include which career we choose, how long we save for before starting a family, which area we live, when to start a family, whether to move to a more affordable area etc. For DH and me, being in a good financial position before having a 2nd child was very important because it opened up more options about where to live. I appreciate everyone makes different choices but the choices are still there.

trufflesnout I didn't say that's what you said, and I do have empathy for my neighbours, but there's not loads parents can do if their baby cries a few times a day. I don't think anyone here is disputing that the noise can be irritating , but pp on here saying that parents shouldn't have babies living in close proximity to neighbours need some empathy and a reality check.
If you read my pp, my neighbours are expecting a baby soon and I won't be expecting an apology from them about a few sleepless nights.
Regardless of any of this, banging on a floor because a baby cries for 5 mins is ridiculous and selfish behaviour IMO.

but pp on here saying that parents shouldn't have babies living in close proximity to neighbours need some empathy and a reality check.

But it's equally stupid to suggest that those who find it irritating to hear a baby crying throughout the night should live in isolated solitude.