Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

I'm in the wonderful position at the moment that I've jst been released from NICU with my three week old, I expressed the full time she was in intensive care (she was nil by mouth for the first 8 days anyway) but my supply dwindled away to nothing, I assume my boobs were under the impression I didnt have a baby. I'm now at home trying to FF a baby on a complex load of medicines, her milk needs thickened with carobel I cant get the consistency the hospital had, I've ran out of breast milk and there is not a person in the land who seems able to help me. So in short you absolutely need support with FF!

I'm a HCP & our Trust implements the UNICEF baby-friendly initiative. I do feel this means we fail to support FF mothers effectively.

IME, BF is all promotion & no practical support.

It certainly felt that way with my non-latching premature, jaundiced baby I. Scbu. We never got BF & to this day I am devastated about it.

We certainly ARE allowed to talk about it! UNICEF guidelines state that we shouldn't routinely demonstrate making up feeds to a group at an antenatal class for several reasons but this doesn't mean a blanket refusal to discuss formula feeding at all!

www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/Health-Professionals/going-baby-friendly/FAQs/Bottle-feeding-FAQ/

How on earth can we expect women to make informed choices about feeding if we withhold information and refuse to discuss the options? Women should be trusted to make the choice that is right for them and their families and then supported appropriately in that choice.

YANBU

So they push breast feeding over formula feeding. Good. It would save 50 million a year of NHS resources if all new mums breastfed. From a public health perspective I am glad of the initiative. From a personal perspective: bloody hell, talk about an unhelpful bias. I really liked MrsEishyWashy's take on it. Sounds like you have come up against a bit of a zealot maybe OP? I breastfed mine and the health visitor was very vocal about how well I did and I really preened about it until I got some distance and realised all this praise about sticking my boob in a baby's mouth was sheer vanity. I didn't like to think of the flip side: not getting support and praise because you decide to ff :(

I mix fed my babies from very soon after birth. Dd was losing weight and a lactation consultant told me I had breast hypoplasia, hence I would probably never provide enough milk. So I had to deal with being told my breasts were shit (explains why they looked so crap), an EMCS, and a daughter that was losing weight because I couldn't provide enough milk for her.

You bet I wish someone had covered bottle feeding before DH went to the 24hr tesco. Thankfully one of the midwives suggested brands and a quick how to.

Nothing has made me feel as shit as being unable to breastfeed fully, despite mix feeding for years. the NHS guidelines need a healthy dose of reality, WHO be damned.

Lilicat, your first experience sounds exactly like mine. It was a complete nightmare. I had endless tests, but no one was ever able to establish why I produced no milk, and I got so little support both when I was desperately trying to breastfeed an increasingly hungry and distressed baby and after I had reluctantly started to FF. And I tried everything - LLL, NCT, HV ('just relax and it'll happen'), locally famous BF counsellor ('Oh, I help with positioning and latches, I can't do anything if you've no milk') and a lactation consultant who charged £150 and suggested I had breast cancer.

In terms of FF support, it's not just how to make up bottles - yes, you can read the label - it's things like, given how its always stressed that you can't overfeed a BF baby, can you overfeed a FF one? It might just be someone kind enough to acknowledge you may not have planned it this way, but formula is not rat poison, and you haven't failed. Because that was the message I was getting. I lived somewhere FF was quite rare, and I had the most awful, thoughtful or deliberately hurtful things said to me about FF in public - and I'm not a shrinking violet, but it was a very vulnerable time, and I felt like shit.

I so wanted to BF, and I had internalised all the 'breast is best' ideology. Surely it must be possible to encourage breastfeeding without making women who can't feel like pariahs?

birobenny As I said in my previous post, I have a box of Aptamil with me now (the one I would normally use if DH wants to do evening bottle, or I am out for any period of time). Perfectly simple instructions, together with guidelines on number/size of feeds according to age/weight.

Both of us are able to sterilise bottles and follow instructions thanks.

YANBU. I EBF my2, that was because I was very lucky and had a tonne of support and it was the most appropriate thing for me. But I find it incredible that women are not given a choice! FF is not as straightforward as people are saying because you need to learn to sterilize. I remember being taught at school, not that long ago, that failing to level the scoop could cause issues. If I were you OP, I would complain to PALS. Whatever the reason for her response, it was inappropriately delivered. You should be able to build a rapport with the MW team, they are there to help, not to judge. I don't care how people dress it up, refusing to talk about a parenting choice is judging it.

I talk at NHS antenatal classes about BF, (I am a peer supporter) and FF is discussed, although the clas is heavily weighted to discussing breastfeeding. Where anyone has asked how to make formula up, it's explained to them that they can ask their own midwife or hospital midwives for a demonstration if they would like one, or there are guidelines for making formula safely on the WHO website.

Generally, our society is a formula feeding one and most people know lots of people who have successfully FF. Baby magazines and bounty packs are filled with adverts for formula and numbers for the 'advice lines' run by formula manufacturers. Many people don't know anyone who successfully BF and so finding advice on it can be harder. BF counsellors can actually offer emotional support for women who find themselves unable to breastfeed or struggling to come to terms with FF.

As a first time Mum, years ago, aged 19, I found breastfeeding very difficult. I got no support or advice from anyone, even midwives or HV's, who agreed my baby was 'too big and hungry' to breastfeed. Not once was I offered any advice or help. BF was difficult, FF was easy. I knew what to do as I'd made formula for my younger cousins and brothers growing up. Even then the advice was to boil the kettle and leave to cool for 30 mins. It was a similar story with my next two DC and it was only when I knew to expect extremely premature babies that I managed to get decent advice on BF.

Surely this is 2015 and we should be pro choice? I don't get it.

I'm still struggling to come to terms with my BF failure and youngest is almost 3. Perhaps with less biased support I could have saved myself a lot of tears over the last few years.

SignoraStronza your attitude stinks, your comments are not constructive and you are clearly missing the point.

Im glad i posted now, thank you for all the feedback and responses - i truly am baffled, perhaps i just keep getting the militant midwives with there own agenda. But its nice to know im not the only one who feels the subject could be approached a whole lot better.

How would the NHS save 50 million if more BF? ( genuine question)

Midori1999 it isn't about a formula demonstration necessity, it again is about the support for mums who can't breastfeed, not because they've chosen not to breastfeed, but because they can't.

What really pisses me off, in retrospect, about the NHS insistence on promoting bf antenatally, is that it isn't then followed through with anything like adequate bf support post-natally. I fully intended to bf, but a combination of c-section, GD, a tongue tie that wasn't spotted until my baby was 3 weeks old (or snipped until she was 7 weeks) and my nipples well and truly shredded, crappy supply, meant that our bf journey was over pretty much before it even started. We staggered on mixing ff & a bit of breast until 11 weeks, but it ruined the first few weeks of motherhood for me. LLL & bf support groups locally were ok, but all have conflicting advice.

To those posters who think formula feeding is easy...well not really, especially if you had no intention of doing it. We were following the box instructions (after initially spaffing £££s on ready made formula), but they say to make every bottle up as you need it. Really not practical. Took weeks before we realised our baby wouldn't be poisoned if we made up the bottles for twelve hour periods and cooled them quickly then stored in the fridge. Certainly revolutionised the night feeds once we realised. The rules have changed over the years, I don't have any female relatives who had used it to ask. All this on top of feeling like a shit mother because I couldn't bf.

So yeah, yanbu, the lack of basic info on how to ff or mixed feed is shit.

Urgh. How to make formula is easy of course it is. Sure just put boiling water in, add formula, shake and cool and off you go. So it's the same for bf yes? Stick the baby on your nipple and off you go.

No just sticking a bottle in your baby's mouth is not actually so simple.

If either method of feeding was really that easy, then why would anyone need support? This infuriates me as a subject. I take medication that crossed into breastmilk so DD has been ff. There was a significant lack of support for me in the run up to labour, not helped by the lactation expert providing a gazillion reasons why breastmilk was oh so wonderful and about five about formula feeding, with no mention on how to actually provide a close experience for both mother and baby, and dad for that matter, when ff. No one told me that she would reject three different types of teat before we found the right one, that I could still bond just as well with her with ff and that there were little tricks with ff to make it easier for both of us and how to help her control the flow. How to find better ways of avoiding colic and her drinking too fast. Not to mention the significant benefit of DH being able to be fully involved, particularly at night so I could get rest. I was fortunate to be in a country which provided more practical tips on ff from health visitors and nurses once DD had arrived. Before that I was bricking it. And felt completely useless as a mother. Fortunately there were some good articles on the Internet about how to successfully ff.

So no, YANBU. As usual some of the comments are absurd. Many of us are intelligent enough to know the difference between bf and ff and to make an educated decision. The women who do need help and further information would need to be reached via alternative means. It's patronising and silly to simply refuse to discuss it. And potentially dangerous!

There should be more emotional support for women who can't breastfeed for whatever reason. You're vulnerable, emotional, exhausted and to top it off the nhs and breast is best brigade are slamming you making you feel like you've failed your child in a way that is tantamount to infanticide

. this

*gave conflicting advice

The issue is the more people who leave the hospital breast feeding, the more funding the hospital gets. Hence the gestapo approach. They are told by the Gods from above that they must get figures up as it equals more pennies.

Its not about establishing good feeding routines with parents more about pressure to breast feed so they get the rewards.

I feel that formula feeding is perceived as "failure" by many new mums.I work in perinatal mh and breastfeeding problems are a major anxiety/stressor for women I work with.
I think midwives are less well resourced than they used to be which means they can't always give the support they might wish to. I'm eternally grateful that I had a fabulous community midwifery team when I had my first baby (many years ago) who helped me get feeding established without pressure. I bf both my children and enjoyed it. But if I'd had the same experience of bf many women have if have ff without a second thought!

I found the prospect of formula feeding my second dc really overwhelming and quite complicated. Especially with the new guidelines. How was I meant to know when my little one would be hungry and ensure he wasn't screaming by the time the 20 mins cooling period had happened. I had questions on night feeds, amounts, frequency.

For some reason my child hadn't read the instructions and wasn't feeding at the set times and taking the suggested amount.

A lovely health visitor and the nct host gave me lovely advice on still feeding on demand etc.

To those saying that ff is easy I can tell you it isn't necessarily so. I ff from the start and it took dd a few days to learn to latch and suck properly on the teat. It's not necessarily just a matter of sticking it in their mouth, the teat has to go in right and the baby has to know how to get the milk out of it. I remember being in tears sitting on the sofa with 3 day old dd because she wasn't feeding properly and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. Luckily mil, who also ff, was able to help me with technique a little. And then there is the whole issue of different teat sizes, making formula on the go, storing it, reflux and colic are also issues relating to general feeding that new parents might need help the support with.

The argument that the instructions are on the box is absurd because I have read the 'instructions' on how to breastfeed on many nhs leaflets yet I know it's not that easy and the there are many areas where a new mother might want/need support. A woman who has been breastfeeding for a few weeks/months and has a well established feeding baby with a good latch and good milk supply is much less likely than a new mother to need help with feeding, the same apply to bottler feeding. Once you have mastered the basic and your baby has learned how to suck and get milk from the teat yes bottle feeding becomes much easier but that doesn't mean support isn't needed at some point.

Oh madamejosephine I had the UNICEF approved lactation specialist. It was in no way helpful to anyone who, for whatever reason, had chosen to ff. The majority of us are able to follow instructions on a packet and it is insulting to think that is all women who ff need. There were even questions from the audience about ff which she refused to answer. I am in another country but the message was still the same. Sorry, not at all having a go at you personally, more at the memory of this woman who gave me and DH and half the audience the rage. But a blanket message is not helpful, nor is a demonstration on how to sterilise and make up a bottle! Ff mothers have just the same concerns about feeding their babies as bf mothers.

And breathe......

Well said livingzuid. Far more eloquent than me!