Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

What on earth are you talking about, myusername? Have you posted on the right thread even?

Oh wow take one of those biscuits for yourself myusername and shove it ... you may have to remove your judgypants first, they're hoiked a little too high

You are actually joking username?? A breastpump is not critical. Lots of people never express whether they bf or not, many can't and hand expressing works fine for many other people. Plus there are lots of other options that don't cost £100

Got to be a joke surely? Most baby stuff isn't essential anyway and is all marketing crap e.g. DS1 much preferred a 20 quid sling to an 'essential' pram!

I didn't buy a pram, cot or breastpump,muslins, bibs, changing mat, and a whole list of other stuff that some think is vital.

Funny- my children survived.

"I feel that the very fabric of breastfeeding promotion within the NHS is set up with such unrealistic and unachievable aims it's not fit for purpose".

Norway used to have breastfeeding rates like the UK - back in the 1970's and 1980's. In the 1960's only 20% were breastfeeding at six months (like the UK today).

Their breastfeeding rates are now

• 98% at birth
• 80% at six months

Only 1% of babies never have ANY breast milk.

Nearly half of mothers are still breastfeeding when their child turns one.

If they can achieve this why can't we?

Part of their push to increase breastfeeding rates involved banning all formula advertising.

They also have very high levels of support for mothers, most hospitals comply with BFI, and the WHO code on formula marketing is fully complied with.

Women get a lot of maternity leave, but that wouldn't impact significantly on rates of breastfeeding initiation. It doesn't in the UK either as most UK mothers take 6 months maternity leave, and those who go back to work after that are just as likely to be breastfeeding at that point as those who don't go back to work. (actually in the UK the women who are least likely to breastfeed are also the least likely to go back to work, or indeed ever have worked).

And there is still a push to increase exclusive breastfeeding rates in Norway. It's currently only 10% at six months.

Gennz - I think most midwives do acknowledge that most breastfeeding is done alongside formula feeding.

Telling mothers that

• exclusive breastfeeding is associated with the best health outcomes
• exclusive breastfeeding is recommended if possible while mothers are trying to establish breastfeeding in the first few weeks

IS NOT 'telling mothers they can't or shouldn't mixed feed' though I suspect that how people often report it.

I agree, much of this smacks of misogyny. If a woman sees a bottle being prepared while pregnant, that's going to imprint on her brain so that she eschews all breastfeeding efforts at the first sign of discomfort. Bollocks to that. Must not let the weak-willed women have information, it's dangerous as it can overload their tiny little brains.

There is some dramatic exaggeration going on here....if you want mysogyny, consider how breastfeeding women are treated sometimes, and in particular, read the comments on stories about breastfeeding in the press, online.

No, the main reason why the health service and so many HCPs have a tin ear about how to support women who formula feed is poor training....they are scared to be seen as promoting formula, and with good reason, as the history of breastfeeding/not breastfeeding in the health service is dismal. For two generations, mothers were told to breastfeed according to a schedule, time their feeds, to top up routinely, and not to feed at night, and to sleep in a separate room from their babies. This led to many unhappy (and often very short) breastfeeding experiences. Mothers were told their milk wasn't good enough, that feeding in response to their babies' needs was 'spoiling' them, and other rubbish we now know works against breastfeeding. In addition, a paternalistic 'we know best' ethos prevailed - and that, rather than mysogyny, is still there, to some degree.

In the past, practice and advice has worked against breastfeeding, and commercial imperatives promoted formula feeding (formula manufacturers not only gave the formula to maternity units, but paid the maternity unit to use their brand and paid them more, the more they used....this was because the unit was recruiting customers). So staff are actually fearful about these bad old days returning.

But no one has really trained them in sharing information about formula in an open, honest and supportive, non-judgemental way - so they don't know what to say, and sometimes say really stupid things (like 'I'm not allowed to tell you about formula' which is just untrue).

This is changing. The UNICEF Baby Friendly Initiative, after 20 years of being told 'this risks making formula feeding women feel judged', at last has revised its standards, and now all training and assessing looks at how all mothers are supported to develop good relationships with their babies, and mothers who use formula are encouraged to feed responsively and with close attention paid to safe preparation....without being judged.

This will take time to filter through to everyday practice, I think. But it is perfectly possible to be honest about the importance of breastfeeding support as a public health initiative, and at the same time, to treat individual mothers and babies as individuals, who need tailored support, and problem solving that enables them to find feeding rewarding and enriching, however it's done.

BTW, it's of limited use comparing Norwegian bf stats to our own. Norway never became an almost wholly-formula feeding culture, as we did in the 60s. Norway never had fewer than about 95 per cent initiation of breastfeeding - which made their measures to protect breastfeeding (which was under attack by commercial interests of the formula manufacturers) much more effective.

They're not mutually exclusive, you know.

Misogyny is pervasive in how women are treated in many areas of society. Lack of investment in maternity, breastfeeding support, rhetoric around bfing etc is also misogynistic.

This doesn't change the fact that situations where women are being denied information because the government or researchers have decided what decisions they should make about their body are also fairly woman-hating. A lot of what happens to women in practice, regardless of their infant feeding decision, betrays the sense women can't be trusted to be in control of their own choices.

I do see your POV, duplodon - I do accept that there is mysogyny in this whole area of maternity care, and it can be 'institutionalised' to the extent it can be hard to pin down. I think there is sometimes a power trip going on. But in terms of person to person dealings, between HCP and mother, I think these interactions and communications can be improved with training and understanding.

The HCP who says 'I am not allowed to discuss formula feeding with you' may not be hating the woman at the other end of the conversation...she may be just ill-trained in knowing what to say and how to say it.

Whatever. This training should take place; attitudes should be challenged; personal experiences should be de-briefed; kindness and caring as well as professionalism should be part of the job.

Tiktok the support you give to women on feeding is fab!

The thread also now shows the difficulty in giving info/evidence/advice to an individual, to a group and to a whole forum.

Op this thread has also shown via one topic the ups and downs of parenting. For those that need any of these qualities it would be nice to gift an open mind, a thick skin and an ability to self forgive when you have that first booking appointment. I'll add a non-judge mental support group to all postnatal women.

Duplodon I would agree in part about trusting women - off topic I know but the recent topic about drinking alcohol in pregnancy is one such example. I'm not a MW or HV but if asked what if I can't breastfeed I would want to know from what angle that question was being asked if that makes sense. Some women just want reassurance, some want info, some want advice, some want a definite answer. Dealing with all of those scenarios requires a different approach and there are no absolutes - definite answers to questions. And that's frustrating, annoying, terrifying.

And how many ill - trained HCPS will use today's news about higher IQ and better earnings to manipulate vulnerable mums "If you ff, you obviously don't want your baby to earn lots of money"

sparky, if anyone says that to a mother, then they are obviously giving very poor care, have dreadful interactions and should be challenged.

Thanks tiktok, who are you going to complain to when fearful and vulnerable?. I applaud the support you try to give but I experienced very patronising and, frankly, ridiculous advice of this puerile nature and was in no fit state to challenge it.

Sadie thank you for saying something nice about me - yesterday, I was told someone 'despised' me because I wanted to make people feel guilty :) I'd laugh in their face, actually, because I assume they have me mixed up with someone else, but even online, it's a ridiculous thing to say.

You make a good point about the distinction between speaking to one woman, speaking to a group, and speaking on a forum. I might say 'there is robust research to show that babies who are breastfed develop healthy feet with fewer bunions in adulthood' (no there isn't, this is just to make a point!)...and I might say that differently in different contexts. I'd need to be sensitive in all situations, 'cos someone will accuse me of telling formula feeding women they want their child to grow up with terrible feet and accusing them of being sub-standard mothers :) :)

Sparky, feeling vulnerable is perhaps not the time to complain.

But by the time someone is cross enough (rather than tearful) and coherent enough (rather than ranty) to write on an internet forum, I'd suggest they were in a good position to write the very same information to the director of midwifery or the chief exec of the hospital or the trust, or to their patients' forum. Hospitals have to make it easy for people to complain these days.

I did. I got apologies that I felt the care wasn't suitable and confirmation that it had other similar complaints. A bit thin.
And then I had a major health crisis and gave up on it.
I am disgusted to learn that this is still going on. Hence my posts.

Glad you complained, though, sparky. I like to think it helps, eventually, when put with other complaints.

I have complained myself on another matter - in fact it was the way a doctor spoke to me which was very, very upsetting, but not bad enough for a formal complaint, if you know what I mean. I wrote to the doctor myself - I was polite and gave him the credit for not intending to upset me, and just suggested a change of words and phrasing. I got a phone call from him, 6 weeks later, and he was very indignant. It was all my fault, according to him, for being upset :) I do think I gave him food for thought, though, and he would have to have been very block-headed to use the same words he used with me with someone else. I do think it;s worth speaking up.

I also complained to the local breast screening unit. I had a suspicious lump, and went for a mammo (all was well, as it turned out). I found the fact there was no wrap/dressing gown to wear on the short walk between cubicle and machine to be undignified and uncomfortable, and told them so. They wrote back and said they would address the problem. Don't know if they did, but I was glad I did something.

'consider how breastfeeding women are treated' yes at times its awful, my friend who was bfing had some awful experiences with both family and strangers .

But women who are ff also feel self conscious about it so ...... why not make the sentence 'consider how women feeding babies are treated'.

My opinion is until women stand together we're fighting a losing battle from all angles.

Minifingers So are you going to make a complaint? - Yes, i did. Point?

Tiktok - I asked about ff on behalf of mothers who do not possess the physical ability to breastfeed and no matter how 'small' a minority that may be in any statistical fanfare, it was a valid question. I dont see, whilst promoting breastfeeding, why formula can't be touched upon, simple. The NHS is stretched enough, posters have touched upon that during this thread, and about how breastfeeding would partially help with that - how on earth would they summon up HCP's to go to individual homes to teach one on one about formula without incurring futher costs? I can't get a hold of my midwife 80% of the time, who the hell would come knocking on my door? Another HCP? That's not me or some other new mum adding to the NHS's financial woes, that the NHS not doing right by ALL mums and just getting it all out in a class.

Discussing ff, in my opinion, while trying to actively normalize and promote bf is seriously important. I do think a lot of mums give up or give in to ff, because of the agony, the stress, and the emotional distress, but thats not to say they should then feel bad for ff. But i also dont see how the discussion of ff in any parent/antenatal session, would some how blind every new mother and over power them with the will to exclusively ff. Both benefit the baby in that they are feeding, which is the main point of concern, because they need to feed. Bf is the normal thing to do, yes, but it is difficult, again not all can do it (no matter how tiny the stupid percentages) and some just dont want to. Its the mothers choice and she should be supported in that choice.

Verbena37 I wish you had led the session instead because that is the sort of response that i wanted, that i would have expected.

myusernameisusername Why can i not afford a breast pump at £100? Because i can't - it's as simple as that! Everything i have is either hand me down, second hand or bought new by family. Why i can't afford it isn't relevant, at all, the fact is, its too fucking expensive and another pressure on a new mum already trying to put together everything she needs to prepare for baby. I cant just magic money out of thin air after rent/tax/utilities - and no, i neither drink, smoke or do recreational drugs either, fact is i have a low income and am not blowing what little i have left over, on a stupid overpriced pump because some uppetty midwife said so. Thanks.

I don't think you have understood my responses, obeliaboo. Your question in the class was valid and should have been dealt with.

I don't think it's crazy to expect that women who need extra help and support with ff should get a demo in their own homes - I don't think everyone will need that, to be honest, but why would it be impossible to do for the ones who would benefit?

Perhaps i have tiktok exhausted sorry