Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

it has completely diverted from the intended topic of why a midwife outright refused to address that some mums can't breastfeed so HAVE to bottle feed, (this wasn't about choosing to formula feed)

I think it's interesting that you make the distinction OP, like "trying to breastfeed but end up using formula" = GOOD and "formula feeding from birth" = BAD

It's tiny prejudices like this that need to be challenged as much as that midwife needed to be challenged.

Yes, exactly that - i didnt even feel like i was challenging her though, tbh, i just thought why are all these parents-to-be nodding along like gormless muppets, maybe i added a bit too much reality to the situation hence her response, i'll never know xD

Actually I agree with seaoflove on that point, I'm sure it was unintentional, but reading into some of your posts it does seem that your issue is about the support offered to women who struggle with breastfeeding as opposed to women who choose to use formula.

I've done both through choice and I was glad of the support for both choices.

I dont feel i've shown predjudice to either, only that there is a distinct lack of empathy for mums who dont have a choice and have to breastfeed, thereby needing a third kind of support if that makes sense.
IMO, breast and formula are both perfectly fine!

Some midwives behave like cartoon nuns- intractable, stuck on dogma at the expense of human feelings. I've met many very human nuns and too few humane midwives.

I dunno.....just today I have addressed your issue, OP, though you have a point that many other posters have taken side roads, but this is a conversation, after all :) On the internet. On a forum :)

Just to reiterate: this was a breastfeeding session you went to, so the midwife was justified in explaining she could not go into detail about formula feeding. What she should not have done, was to use that horrible term 'artificial feeding', and she could have easily addressed your concern briefly in the session without making you feel uncomfortable, and offered more one to one discussion opportunity afterwards.

It is truly pointless, and even risky, to explain how to make up formula feeds safely, weeks or even months before the info is needed, because people will forget, or remember incorrectly. People do need to know there are safety factors, though, and they should inform themselves of them.

I really, really dislike sorting women into categories according to how they want to feed their babies. It is no one else's business if someone wants to ff from the start, or wants to try to bf, or wants to try to the nth degree to bresastfeed, or switches to bf at the first challenge...but midwives really need to open their hearts to all women and respond honestly to their need for for support and information however they are feeding. It is absolutely not part of any campaign or programme to belittle and embarrass and judge women, and if women feel belittled and embarrassed and judged, then they have to start complaining....NOT on an internet forum, or not solely, but to the health services that are meant to be serving them.

Women who bf feel belittled and embarrassed and judged, just as much as women who use formula - and women who do both. None of us have the monopoly on crap treatment! We and our babies all deserve non-judgmental support, and, crucially, good information and skilled problem-solving.

though you have a point that many other posters have taken side roads, but this is a conversation, after all smile On the internet. On a forum smile

This.

Some of those points are relevant and show unspoken prejudices and incorrect beliefs that need to be challenged in order to help support women in all situations.

You can't control how conversations on the internet develop. Nor tbh do I think you should try too much as you end up missing very valuable points that are important to your original question.

I just find it sad that there is more ranting, raving and a lack of wanting to see either side tbh. Its not in my control, but i feel a lot of posters have managed to go very off topic and protest the relevance of other topics, which yes are also technically inclusive and interesting, but not really the 'answers' i was looking for.
It wasnt just that the midwife branded it 'artificial feeding', it was her agenda, her attitude, her condescension to ask me to explain a fairly simple question as if i were stupid for asking that riled me, because i didnt ask in riddles.

Overall though, atleast it has sparked such a rounded debate.

When I had ds1 and 2 the advice from hv was to add formula to cooled boiled water. So that's what I did with both of them. I think I did it for ds3 as well. Thankfully they were ok. Actually we did have a few vomiting bugs but it never crossed my mind that this could be the cause. All my friends did the same. I have no idea what is said on the tin.

With ds4 I was aware of the change and so used ready made formula the majority of the time to avoid the stress.

obeliaboo I think that there is no 'answer' as such except some HCP are twats who don't really see the bigger picture. For many of the same reasons displayed on this thread.

As tiktok says, I think you should complain as that's the only way that things are changed. After having done stuff in the past hospitals are very much under the impression and mindset that everything is great unless they have an official complaint on record and often use a lack of complaints as a way of saying their current way of doing things is good without thought to reviewing things for themselves and questioning their approach themselves. Unfortunately unless you make a nuisance and say something officially then they don't tend to even acknowledge their is a problem much less do something about it. (and often they don't do anything even if you do complain, but again that's yet another topic).

I personally have something of a chip on my shoulder with regard to how patients are often treated as stupid in health care and HCP play to the lowest denominator to try and hit targets and cover their own arses rather than listen to the patient. There is a resistance to challenging their preferred options as it can affect how they are rated rather than how the patient feels about the care they receive. There is a very definite conflict of interest going on within the NHS. I have found that you have to be direct and pull people up on it, otherwise they do carry on doing it.

I think that formula feeding is definitely a legitimate choice and making a positive choice to do it can be a lot better than all the crap of trying to breast feed only to have problems with that. The trouble is I don't think this is recognised. People have a tendency to use research and stats to support their own beliefs rather than look a bit deeper and I think the whole breastfeeding/formula debate is particularly mired in this shit. Its not the only thing but I think its one of the worst.

"I think the whole breastfeeding/formula debate is particularly mired in this shit. Its not the only thing but I think its one of the worst."

No - it's just people defending the health benefits of breastfeeding who are 'mired in this shit'.

All other aspects of this issue can be discussed happily with no reference to anything other than the feelings, experiences and preferences of individuals.

"It wasnt just that the midwife branded it 'artificial feeding', it was her agenda, her attitude, her condescension to ask me to explain a fairly simple question as if i were stupid for asking that riled me, because i didnt ask in riddles."

So are you going to make a complaint?

So if it was a breast feeding session are plenty of ffing sessions available too?If not sorry that is no excuse and both should be covered.

Marseilles, if there are ff sessions, I would be astonished. Read some of the stories in this thread to find out why.

No, there are never any formula feeding sessions and quite right too. Group teaching of formal feeding antenatally is educationally unsound, and in a culture in which it is difficult to sustain the choice to breastfeed, it is breastfeeding that needs the enabling approach of antenatal preparation. Postnatally is the time for formula feeding teaching, one to one, preferably in the family's own kitchen, with full support given so someone using formula knows to feed responsively, flexibly, with loving closeness, not passing the baby round like a parcel to anyone who wants 'a turn', and no judgments.

This does not or should not mean pretending there are no health consequences from ff. It is ridiculous to use the argument that you can't tell which ones of a class of five year olds were bf and which were ff. There are many health outcomes of all sorts of things which are not visible. That doesn't mean they are not real!! So can we stop using that particular bit if daftness. Thank you

"Group teaching of formula teaching is educationally unsound"

Says who???

Ah I see tis the science that means we can't be told about the basics of safe ff in an ante natal group setting . much better to just assume that any parents who are going to get it wrong know that they are going to get it wrong and that they should ask for guidance before baby arrives.

seems perfectly sensible to me. In no way connected to the blanket 'don't mention the formula' policy that seems to permeate nhs ante natal and post natal care I'm sure .

Problem is Tiktok, that by the time the midwife comes round after the birth, the family have already done a few feeds.

Perhaps women should be told categorically not to use powdered formula until they've had some one to one support after the birth?

See, I don't buy the argument that research shows there's no point teaching formula prep antenatally, because "people forget" - surely the same would apply to breastfeeding classes also?

And although I agree with tiktok that it would be best to provide one on one formula prep tuition, at home, to those who need it, but in reality how does one actually GET a HCP in their home to do this at the time of need? It just doesn't happen.

Genuine, proven, definitive health consequences of formula, once you've discounted genetic, social and environmental factors? I'd love to know.

"That does not mean pretending that there are no health consequences form ff either"

It's throwaway comments like this that are so irritating because they are so misleading - if a mw told someone that there are' health consequences' of ff most people would assume that they ff will damage health to some significant degree when the reality is that it is highly unlikely to make any difference to an individual child. It's unnecessary language like 'health consequences of ff'that causes so much distress to women who wanted to bf but could not. Which is an awful a lot of women.

"because "people forget" - surely the same would apply to breastfeeding classes also?"

If you forget how to breastfeed generally the worst that's going to happen before you get help is that your baby will get a bit hungry and you'll get sore nipples.

Forgetting how to make up a formula feed (as the research shows that many people taught antenatally do) but going ahead without checking because they think they know, could result in a baby ending up really, really sick.

"when the reality is that it is highly unlikely to make any difference to an individual child"

Drinking a couple of glasses of wine a day during pregnancy, smoking and putting a baby to sleep on their front is also unlikely to make any difference to an individual child but it doesn't excuse the midwife from flagging up the risks of these behaviours.

Tiktok, I really, really respect your advice.

However, it was funny when the midwife asked DH to dress DS and he was flabbergasted because somebody was trusting him to dress a baby!!!!!!!!!

It wouldn't have been so funny if on day 2 I was rushed to hospital after a car accident and he was suddenly trying to work out how to feed DS without me.

I am sure formula was discussed in a very straightforward manner at Nct classes (12 years ago) as part of general q&a along with things like disposable v reusable nappies and this was reassuring.

As far as I remember everybody went on to bf for months or more except for one baby who had tt.

I'm sure your opinion is based on research. However, as somebody who bf, talking about ff was helpful to me.

Why is it "educationally unsound" to include preparing formula and the use of it in sessions prior to birth? Surely that is exactly when these things need to be mentioned.

Incidentally - if scientists are saying they can identify whether babies are breast or formula fed by comparing MRI scans, then I'd perhaps how a baby is fed DOES have some impact on each and every one. It just won't be perceivable to the parents. BrownUniversityUSA

I personally think they should include bottle feeding as part of a session on coping with life with a new baby.

Feeding is at the centre of everything you do in the early days.

Just talking about how to manage night feeds, doing skin to skin, responsive bottle feeding, understanding how all babies are different in the way they feed, encouraging parents to watch the baby rather than focusing exclusively on how much milk they've drunk etc etc.

Also explaining to parents how much non-evidence based hokum there is in the way bottles and formula are marketed would help parents have a bit more confidence in their choices. Understanding that there's not one 'best' formula or one 'best' type of teat or bottle.