Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

Forgetting how to make up a formula feed (as the research shows that many people taught antenatally do) but going ahead without checking because they think they know, could result in a baby ending up really, really sick.

That rationale would be sound IF parents were routinely educated about formula prep postnatally.

But they're not.

People ARE going ahead without checking.

Honestly, would it really be so awful if NHS antenatal classes spent five minutes emphasising the importance of adding powder to 70 degree water. If people knew how sick a baby could get, I'm guessing game they wouldn't forget.

Personally, I think this excuse not discuss formula antenatally is exactly that - an excuse. To suggest people are too dim and forgetful to retain some really crucial and simple information (hot water! Not cold! Not boiling!) is bonkers to me.

Fabbo. If only that info had been available when DS (ASD) was throwing chairs in the classroom at age 5, I could have shouted to all the other parents "I might look like the most craptastic parent ever, but he was exclusively bf!".

(Talking about MRI scans)

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating stuff.

In my trust, we have separate parentcraft and breastfeeding sessions. I think we very briefly mention breastfeeding in the parentcraft class, otherwise infant feeding isn't mentioned at all. You can go to one of them, neither or both, it's up to each woman. I think it's pretty shitty that you have to attend a parentcraft class just to get a hospital tour. That definitely does NOT happen where I am. A lot of women aren't comfortable sitting in a group situation or just aren't interested (and let's face it, a lot of parentcraft classes are boring as fuck and I don't think a lot of them actually teach women anything). I would definitely complain that to get a tour you have to go to a class - that's outrageous, what happened to women's choice?!

I can understand why you don't like the term artificial feeding but that is the proper "health" term for it and how it's referred to in handovers. I would never use that term in front of a woman, although I'm sure I've had the occasional slip-up. I can see why she didn't discuss it though - it's probably against their policy although she should have discussed problems that can arise in breastfeeding and how to overcome them. I think in our workshops we mention that occasionally we might have to give formula by cup but otherwise we don't go into it. Because if you have a low supply there are things you can do and using formula isn't going to be the first resort (unless you want to, of course).

I think the real issue is that you were forced to go to a session you didn't want to go to. Personally, I think breastfeeding workshops can be useful because it's shocking how many women are completely clueless about their own bodies and have no idea how breastfeeding or labour works (and I include myself in that, I didn't know anything before I started midwifery). I've met so many women who say they have no milk because they're only able to express a couple of mls off in the early days when actually that's normal but they're comparing themselves to the baby in the next bed who's just had a 30ml bottle. I think the breastfeeding workshops are very good where I am because they do talk about the differences between formula and breast milk and how babies respond to them (eg. breastfed babies are more likely to feed more often than formula fed babies and it's not because they're not getting enough, which is another common misconception) and they acknowledge that you can run into problems and don't pretend breastfeeding is just a case of shoving your boob in your baby's mouth and suddenly you're an earth mother and it's all beautiful and lovely. Because it's not, it's bloody hard work sometimes and I wish health professionals would acknowledge that more.

Then women who say "why do you need support for FF, you just read it and go!" complete bullshit. That's like saying "why do you need support for breastfeeding, breasts create milk, children have a natural instinct to suckle, just put the child on your tit and go!"

I had every intention of breast feeding, and while I was in hospital with my poorly baby after birth she was struggling to latch, and she had a nasty infection, after 3 days the hospital gave me formula, teets, and requested I mix feed her to get her milk intake up and get her fighting fit... fair enough... I wasn't happy but fair enough. In the hospital they also asked me to pump (and again, various versions of one popular brand)

Anyway I've ended up having to exclusively formula feed, not what I wanted to do, but baby was happier so I worked through the guilt and I am now fine. The hospital sent me home with lots of information on formula feeding, safe preparation, safe storage...etc

When you look online you see plenty of clueless people preparing formula in quite dangerous ways (i.e, boiling water and then cooling it before mixing it with the formula, and therefore completely missing the point of the temperature of the water and what it's for)

As well as making sure you safely formula feed your baby, there are plenty of complications regarding allergies, reflux, comfort fomulas, reflex formulas, soy formulas, different types of teets, bottles, higher likelihood of colic..etc. It's also debated whether you can actually over feed when formula feeding...etc.

OP I do not think you are being unreasonable. As an informed choice is always the best choice. Luckily my hospital was very supportive, as was my midwife (Who happened to be a formula feeder) and health care people. Why they can't just happily answer your questions is crazy!

Ignore all my typos, crazy hands!

Forgot to add, I agree there should be more discussion around formula and making up bottles. Again, I've had a lot of people say they want to use Aptamil because it's closest to breast milk (not true) or they want to use the special hungry baby formula which isn't recommended. I was taught how to make up a formula milk bottle as part of the midwifery course even though I've never done it on a midwifery placement so I don't see why parents shouldn't. And unfortunately, there are some people out there who really need teaching. We had someone ring up the ward recently telling us he hadn't got any formula (what are we supposed to do about it?), he didn't know where to get it, how to make up a bottle or anything. Scary.

There's also the con of "first infant milk" and follow on milk. every health professional has told me to keep my baby on the first milk much longer than advertised, something you wouldn't do unless advised.

Fine showing people how to make formula pre-birth isn't the right approach but it wouldn't hurt to include safety tips like the 70 degree rule, that CBW shouldn't be used for bottles etc that demand feeding is best, that bottles don't have to be finished etc and few babies go four hours between feeds at first if ever despite what great aunt Mavis says.

Seaoflove then the answer is to make sure no ff mum leaves hospital without being shown how to make up a bottle, not to start teaching it antenatally when it's proven not to be a good way of communicating this information.

Hi beloved

"Warning about the health consequences of ff"

"Warning about the health consequences of putting the baby to sleep on her tummy"

Informing parents that ff may increase the risk of (whatever)

Informing parents that sleeping in tummy may increase the risk of (whatever)

It's an important distinction . Well I think it is anyway.

But if somebody asks a straightforward question - "what's formula all about then?", isn't it just incredibly patronising to say "sorry, I can't tell you that until you have had the baby as it won't be effective".

I can probably find the information elsewhere but I'm going to be a bit "wtf?" about your classes. (As demonstrated clearly by many people on this thread).

I work in another area of NHS but we always present all the options to patients with as much info as possible for them to make an informed choice. To refuse to discuss it is bordering on negligent.

Seaoflove then the answer is to make sure no ff mum leaves hospital without being shown how to make up a bottle, not to start teaching it antenatally when it's proven not to be a good way of communicating this information.

It's not the answer though, because it works on the assumption that everyone who opts for formula, does so from birth.

I for one was discharged "exclusively breastfeeding" (if taking home a starving, dehydrated newborn with dangerously low blood sugar counts - of course I only know this with hindsight). Day one at home: no community MW visit. That night I realised the baby was starving. By the time the community midwives rocked up, nearly 48 hours post discharge, we were FF. I daresay my kind of experience wasn't unusual.

No formula advice was given or offered.

birobenny, you say my comment that 'there are health consequences' is throw-away - eh? This is an internet forum, not a parentcraft/antenatal class/educational session. I could detail what the conseqences are and assess the research for you, explain why some research is better than other research, point you in the direction of decent information, acknowledge that some differences have been over-played, and that some are yet to be properly proven, and others are really beyond question....I could explain the difference between a public health impact and an individual impact....and so on and on and on.

But I won't. Instead, I stated, briefly and appropriately, something factual....and you accuse me of making a throw away comment which would scare someone, or distress someone who wanted to breastfeed and for whatever reason did not.

I am sad for people who wanted to breastfeed, and did not. But not so sad that I decide never to acknowledge that the way babies are fed actually has an impact on their health.

"Warning about the health consequences of ff"
"Warning about the health consequences of putting the baby to sleep on her tummy"
Informing parents that ff may increase the risk of (whatever)
Informing parents that sleeping in tummy may increase the risk of (whatever)

It's an important distinction . Well I think it is anyway.

Of course it is. One is trying to scare the shit out of you and guilt you. The other is allowing you to make an adult decision taking into consideration other factors particular to your circumstances and decide whether that risk is an acceptable level to you or not.

It frames things very differently. One puts you in control, the other controls you. One suggests that THIS WILL HAPPEN in a frightening way whereas the other puts it into context so doesn't turn you into a gibbering wreck.

RedToothBrush - I agree about not talking about 'warning' people. Feeding babies, however it's done, is emotive. We don't do anyone any favours by using emotive language.

There is nothing to "warn" about.

Tiktok

People involved in the feeding debates are morally responsible for the damage the language they use can cause. I assumed it was a throwaway comment because it's exactly the kind of lsnguave I see being used time and again in these debates and that sometimes Creeps into official advice.

And you can roll your eyes all you like frankly. If you cant accept that the phrase "health consequences of ff" is misleading and potentially damaging then I guess you are a lost cause.

By the time the community midwives rocked up, nearly 48 hours post discharge, we were FF. I daresay my kind of experience wasn't unusual.

DH had been sent to the car to get the FF leaflet that was still in there, because I was about to give in. It was about 40 hours post discharge at just before midnight. I do think there is a crisis point around that time.

He bumped into a neighbour in the process of doing so. Without her, I would have ended up FF DS without a shadow of a doubt.

So the irony for me is NHS information on FF really DID help me BF in the long run!!!

I think in hindsight, I think being encouraged to never make a final decision over night and if desperate to use formula as a stop gap until the morning until you can speak to someone to give you support would have been helpful. I do think that daylight rather than sleep has an impact on your thinking at that point and people do different things and make difference decisions during that period than they normally would.

Refusal to discuss formula and this insistence on completely demonising it, stops this process.

"Health consequences of formula feeding" - that's pretty emotive, when you consider that the Cambridge dictionary definition of consequence is "the result of a particular action or situation, often one that is bad or not convenient", and Roget suggests synonyms such as payback, fallout, aftermath, repercussion and can of worms.

I could detail what the conseqences are and assess the research for you, explain why some research is better than other research, point you in the direction of decent information, acknowledge that some differences have been over-played, and that some are yet to be properly proven, and others are really beyond question....I could explain the difference between a public health impact and an individual impact....and so on and on and on.

You know, tiktok, in the least goady manner possible, I'd love it if you could elaborate. In a previous life I used to be involved in teaching junior doctors about evidence based medicine. I know my way around the Cochrane Library. I understand the difference between a meta-analysis and a piddly little case study with a dozen participants... and yet all I see when it comes to people stating the case against breastfeeding is heavily biased, cherry picked, unsubstantiated scaremongering.

Not appropriate for me to elaborate on this thread, seaoflove, sorry! You sound as if you would know where to get the info, anyway :)

THAT's a shame tiktok, because I am genuinely interested.

But if it's not appropriate to elaborate, was it appropriate to mutter darkly about the health consequences of formula in the first place?

As for doing my own literature searches... well, I have neither the time nor the access to the good medical databases these days, and nor am I a HCP, which is why I'd rather have an expert do the disseminating for me.

To say that the way babies are fed in the first months of life, whether breastfeeding, formula feeding or mixed, has consequences, is not 'emotive'. It would be very rude and unkind to say it directly to someone who is formula feeding - and why would you? But as part of informing oneself prior to making a decision, then knowing that how you feed a baby has an impact on the baby, is part of your decision-making....surely. It might not be the over-riding piece of information for you, or a deal-breaker, but knowing it is just being a grown up!

"The type of food we eat has health consequences"...."the type of air we breathe has health consequences"....." the type of job someone does has health consequences"....."where people live has health consequences" ... " emotive? Surely not!