to think this is unacceptable and wonder why Scotland is fair game for racist attacks like this

[ScotsWhaHae]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/mar/09/steve-bells-if-

It's not even funny.

Incest? Wtf?

I'm disappointed in the guardian. It raises the question though, substitute the Scottish references for some other nation, would that be acceptable?

We got told repeatedly about the anti English sentiment north of the border last year, during the referendum. Shit like this isn't appearing in Scottish editions of the news papers.

Along with the casual racism lets add sexism into the mix. We have a female first minister. Repeatedly in main stream media I hear people talk about Alex salmond and the snp. He's not the leader of the party or the first minister. Is the press that out if touch with Scottish politics or are they just ignoring Nicola on account of her begin female?

And let's not get started on 'the wee lassie with a tin helmet' comment. But that won't be in any of the English editions will it?

And that was at the end of s6.

I had my unconditional offer from s5 but would have been 16. Not an option! I'm a January birthday.

According to MN everyone defers now. Its not the experience on our school (50/50).

I didn't think we have one year less of school - surely Scotland is 7 years of primary and 5-6 of secondary and England is 6 of primary and 7 secondary. So both 13 unless you leave after S%. Though it might depend where you are in England.

At school (not in Scotland) we had lower sixth and upper sixth, Scotland has just one sixth form year. No idea what the rest of the UK has now.

England has 7 years primary, just one of them is called reception, followed by year 1 up to year 6.

SusanneLinder Welsh government have promoting Welsh signs and the Welsh language for years-not sure what the difference is?
There are very few Gaelic speakers left, schools were not teaching it as the focus was on French/German/Spanish etc. I don't see the problem with promoting Gaelic

That's actually a good point! Well, the reasons that you do it for and the funds provided by the taxpayer of course are important, but generally - I'm no linguist, but I think that what we call Scots Gaelic is actually from Ireland. And that if Scotland were to promote the "original" Scottish Gaelic from an earlier period, pre-Irish immigration, it would have been nearer Welsh. It depends on what period you pick, but Scotland was never totally Gaelic speaking throughout history. Its the difference between P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, or suchlike.

And then of course parts of Scotland never spoke Gaelic at all, or not for a long period - certainly they have been English speaking longer than Gaelic speaking. Except for Orkney and Shetland, which I think from around the 9th Century until the early 1800s were in fact Norse speaking, and which have no history of tartan, haggis, bagpipes, etc..

Its not only England that's been the oppressor in history...

Totally confused by all this talk of different years in Scottish schools now! My experience was that I was always one of the youngest in my year, due to when my birthday fell, nevertheless I went to university from 6th year in high school, aged 18 (plus one month and a half). This was standard I think, everyone in my year at high school did the same. None went from fifth year. My DH did however go straight from 5th year but not into as good a course or as good a university as he would have done if he had done a 6th year. Again, just our experiences.

That's really odd. The youngest folk would normally enter 6th year aged 16 and leave it aged 17 (I'm a Jan birthday so one of the youngest). So I was 18 the January after I started uni - I remember being utterly hacked off that no bank would give me a student account.

Do you start out in a Scottish school Chandler?

Im a Sep birthday so was nearly 5 starting school, I left at the end of 6th year, so June 96 and I was 17, only had a week or two at uni before I was 18 though.

I had friends who had birthdays between Sep & Feb & were all still 17 starting uni, this is the case still, and that's staying on till the end of 6th year.

But anyway, as far as I know (correct me if anyone experienced anything different!), it was 7 years at primary school in Scotland and 6 in high school (if you did them all).

I always found it really unusual that my DH went to uni from 5th year and he's actually the only person I know who did that! As far as I know the universities always encouraged a 6th year, and still do.

I went to Uni from 5th Year (a good course at a good Uni). As an April birthday, I was one of the oldest in my year (except for those that had deferred). To be fair on the Uni, they did contact my school and check that I was mature enough, so I was accepted (conditional on my results) and some of my friends were told that they would be accepted if they did 6th Year and got the results

Back in the ark when I was at Uni, especially the one I was at (which had a majority of English students) there was an assumption that all the students were over 18, so for the 6 months until my birthday, I was still able to drink.

Ds is a September birthday, so even if he does a 6th Year, he may not be able to drink during Freshers' Week

Yes, but rUK has 7 years at primary and 7 at secondary - A levels being a two year course.

Chandler Did you start school in the year you were 5 (Feb to Feb year) or the following year? When's your birthday?

Going to uni after 5th year isn't the norm. Being 17 at the end of 6th year isn't usual so many (half) finish 6th year and go to uni at 17.

I remember people moving to our school from England and coming into the year below them so there must be some discrepancy between the two systems but I don't know what!

Yup - there's a disjoint that I only recently worked out. Having worked out that Reception approximates to P1, we then go to secondary at roughly the same time: after P7/Y6.

But then we do 4 years before our Nat 5s (Standard grades/O grades depending on your age ) while in England they do 5 years before they do their GCSEs. We can then do our Highers the year after and possibly go to Uni then and Advanced Highers and/or more Highers in S6. In England they do 2 more years before sitting A Levels.

5 years of high school before gcses? That's loads! When do they start gcse? I know that we start standard grades at the start of third year.

I think they do GCSEs at the end of Y11 (although some schools put some pupils forward in Y10).

Technically under Curriculum for Excellence, pupils are supposed to follow the BGE (Broad General Education) until the end of S3 but in practice, some schools (like ds' school) start the specialisation for Nat 5s (replacement for Standard grades) at the end of S2.

I know that we start standard grades at the start of third year.

Not any more we don't.

"That's actually a good point! Well, the reasons that you do it for and the funds provided by the taxpayer of course are important, but generally - I'm no linguist, but I think that what we call Scots Gaelic is actually from Ireland. And that if Scotland were to promote the "original" Scottish Gaelic from an earlier period, pre-Irish immigration, it would have been nearer Welsh."

Well yes, but nobody speaks that, there are still speakers of Gaelic in it's current form.

I don't think anyone except the SNP would deny that it's been convenient to promote it, but equally it is some people's first language and it should have been a whole load more people's first language.

There are some groups of people out there that do feel that it was taken away from them...and they're not wrong really, it wasn't just that it was replaced naturally it was suppressed.

Personally I think it's dying and past the point of promotion making any difference, but, it's too recent for many people to give up on yet and not all of those people are motivated by independence or SNP supporters, it's just something they do feel strongly about.

Going to uni after 5th year isn't the norm. Being 17 at the end of 6th year isn't usual so many (half) finish 6th year and go to uni at 17.

Depends how old you are. When I was at secondary school in Scotland in 1972 - 1977 most of my year who were going went from 5th year, only a handful of us stayed on until 6th year. At least 2 went into medicine from 5th year.

I did a 6th year but that was definitely not the norm, there were loads of students in my first year at uni who had gone from 5th year including a few who were 16.

By the time my son went most did 6th year but there were a few who went from 5th year.

My DH did however go straight from 5th year but not into as good a course or as good a university as he would have done if he had done a 6th year

There were several people in my year who went to Edinburgh from 5th year including 2 who did medicine.

Scots ordinary degrees (i.e. without honours, not Masters) are 3 years, not 4 years

An honours degree in Scotland is not a Masters degree. An honours degree will simply be LLB hons, BA hons, BSc hons.

A masters degree is a post grad degree unless it is an Arts degree from Aberdeen which, due to some weird and wonderful dispensation, is always an MA whether ordinary or honours.

Not just Aberdeen. I have an MA from St Andrews.

All the Arts Faculty Honours degrees from the "old" Universities (St Andrews, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen) are MAs. Mine is in French and Economics from St Andrews. Don't think the newer Unis do that.

The Science faculties do BScs.

Excluding those kids that were deferred (and a higher proportion do now than in the past), technically, even if they choose to do a 6th Year, half the cohort would be 17 when the university term started. Ds, whose birthday is in September - so technically right in the middle of the cohort, would still be 17 when term starts (they mostly seem to start in September now it was October in my day )

The sun are at it again today. But not in the Scottish print edition, where they are actually serialising Salmonds book.

Wings link to cartoon

I have no intention of linking to the sun through the pay wall, wings will have to do.

So once you look past the see you Jimmy hat and being labelled an immigrant you realise they are using Salmond and not Sturgeon despite all the other parties being represented by their leader.

What's all that about?

About Gaelic: there are six Celtic languages, all descended from the original British language that was spoken throughout Britain until the Saxon invasion.

The Celtic languages are divided into two groups: Welsh, Cornish and Breton, which all have similarities; and Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Manx, which again are all quite similar. So if you speak Welsh you'll be able to work out bits of Cornish, but you'll have much less success with Scots Gaelic.

The Guardian readers' editor today responds to complaints about the Steve Bell cartoon:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/15/cartoonist-steve-bell-defend-right-to-draw