to think this is unacceptable and wonder why Scotland is fair game for racist attacks like this

[ScotsWhaHae]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/mar/09/steve-bells-if-

It's not even funny.

Incest? Wtf?

I'm disappointed in the guardian. It raises the question though, substitute the Scottish references for some other nation, would that be acceptable?

We got told repeatedly about the anti English sentiment north of the border last year, during the referendum. Shit like this isn't appearing in Scottish editions of the news papers.

Along with the casual racism lets add sexism into the mix. We have a female first minister. Repeatedly in main stream media I hear people talk about Alex salmond and the snp. He's not the leader of the party or the first minister. Is the press that out if touch with Scottish politics or are they just ignoring Nicola on account of her begin female?

And let's not get started on 'the wee lassie with a tin helmet' comment. But that won't be in any of the English editions will it?

Fizzy. Good luck if you ever have to defend that view in a court.

Region? Seriously?

Regionalism?? Explain what you mean, Scotland isnt a region.

This cartoon is hilariously unfunny but the SNP should take it as a compliment The Labour party are absolutely shitting themselves at the prospect of being wiped out in Scotland. Gone are the days when Labour voters would have voted for a dead dog if it was a Labour dead dog. This is a protest vote against Labour corruption in places such as Glasgow City Chambers. I am a Scot who has lived in England for almost 30 years. I wouldn't have voted for independence since I don't think the economics stack up but I can understand why people did.
You can argue all day about whether the Scots are a race or not. However we are bound by strong cultural ties, our accents and dialects distinguish us clearly from other people in Britain, the legal and educational systems are different.... I could go on and on. That doesn't stop me from being annoyed that Scots in Scotland get free education and free hospital parking though!!!

DH works in HE in Edinburgh. They've had a few English students refuse to pay fees and issue has been quietly swept under the carpet in a 'We won't pursue you for fees if you don't tell anyone we're not taking action' kind of way.

The current fee system in Scotland is thought to be unsustainable in the long term by many in the HE sector and drop out rates are higher in Scotland than England. DH (and others) see this as being down to people not valuing what they don't pay for.

I would have thought it'd be more likely down to the fact that Scots go to uni a year longer.

A year earlier !

I'm probably quite a centralist at heart as I don't like the idea of people paying the same taxes but receiving different services - ie I don't like postcode lotteries and I suspect many people don't (take IVF as an example - is it right that whether you qualify depends on where you live?) So the tuition fees issue really annoys me (but it annoys me that England charges, not that Scotland doesn't, as I think a civilised country educates its population, and it makes economic sense to do so).

But I know many people see localism as being very important, so if Scotland receives far more powers and can organise itself to have the cash to provide more services, then why not? If the people of Scotland pay for the services for Scotland, that's fair, and is similar to the model of the Channel Islands, who govern their own affairs but pay the British government for consular and defence services (I always thought people in Scotland was missing a trick by not opting for that model but it looks like that's what they are going to end up with now anyway). If people in England want that (or in Wales or NI), they can move to Scotland or elect a government in England that will offer that.

As for the race thing, yes the legal and education systems are different but surely in the end it comes down to accent and not a lot else? If I am in Scotland, the only thing that marks me out as being English is the fact that I have an English accent. Otherwise we share largely the same ethnicity (I am half Irish) and traditions. I accept that Scotland has more of a socialist tradition than (the south of) England) but that has nothing to do with race/nationality etc.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - is it not quite rare for Scottish students to go to uni after S5? In my school only one person did, and we probably had 200 pupils in S5. Those who left at that age were more likely to go to college or work than uni.

Even going after S6 many will be only 17.

Even after S6 there are 17 year olds entering University, those pupils sit their Highers in S5 at 16.

On average the kids are 6 months younger than English equivalents due to different cut off dates at school entry.

Itsall - seems to be way more prevalent since the 50% to uni pledge and the introduction of fees south of the border - I will ask DH later, but think it's more that English drop out rates have fallen since fee introduction. If it was down to the fact that Scottish students go to uni generally at 17 rather than 18 which leads to higher drop out rate then that needs seriously looking into.

The Scottish 'race' thing is a bit [hmmm]. I don't think highlanders have any more common with borderers or those from Glasgow with Orcadians than with Scousers or Geordies - in fact I think many Glaswegians probably have more in common (more socialist politically) with Scousers than they would with Highlanders. In fact the referendum brought home to me just how diverse our population is. I'm in the borders (originally from west coast) and we had a 65%+ no vote as did Orkney and the Shetlands. It was ONLY Glasgow regions and Dundee who had a majority Yes vote - vast swathes of Scotland voted no.

Itsallgoingtobefine I would have thought it'd be more likely down to the fact that Scots go to uni a year longer.

Scots ordinary degrees (i.e. without honours, not Masters) are 3 years, not 4 years. Many student in Scotland do a 3 year ordinary degree. No-one really knows why there is such a policy, but it doesn't seem to be quite legal.

I think some posters are confused over the use of the word "race" in the term "racism". "Race" refers to more than ethnicity, and generally covers any minority who can be identified by a number of characteristics in a country. So we have non-ethnic white British gypsies for example who are protected by racial discrimination laws, because they have a shared cultural history and identity.

Apintofthebest And I've never heard of it being common for Scots to go to university at 17 as opposed to 18 - a very few students occasionally do, but most universities in Scotland have always been very reluctant to accept 17 year olds and specify in their criteria that they favour a sixth year at school even if the grades for entry are achieved in fifth year. Certainly for the professional subjects. I've known Scots students go to college at age 17, but that's the case all over the UK.

The Scottish 'race' thing is a bit [hmmm]. I don't think highlanders have any more common with borderers or those from Glasgow with Orcadians than with Scousers or Geordies

I'd agree with you there. You could also make a case for saying theres just as much divide between East Coasters and West Coasters (in the north of the UK as a whole) or between rural areas and industrial areas.

I find a lot of the nationalism recently promoted by the SNP to boost their campaign for independence rather artificial. You can point to many points in history when Northern England and Scotland were part of the same country, so to pick out one period of history seems highly purposive. I also find the promotion of Gaelic almost a very deliberate and rather fake attempt to promote a very different Scottish culture - I wonder how road signs in Gaelic in Orkney and Shetland would fare?!

The failte gu Alba sign at Carter Bar caused a bit of a stink considering Gaelic was never spoken in the borders!

I find a lot of the nationalism recently promoted by the SNP to boost their campaign for independence rather artificial. You can point to many points in history when Northern England and Scotland were part of the same country, so to pick out one period of history seems highly purposive. I also find the promotion of Gaelic almost a very deliberate and rather fake attempt to promote a very different Scottish culture - I wonder how road signs in Gaelic in Orkney and Shetland would fare?!

Welsh government have promoting Welsh signs and the Welsh language for years-not sure what the difference is?
There are very few Gaelic speakers left, schools were not teaching it as the focus was on French/German/Spanish etc. I don't see the problem with promoting Gaelic.

BakewellSlice Fri 13-Mar-15 09:41:00
Even after S6 there are 17 year olds entering University, those pupils sit their Highers in S5 at 16.

On average the kids are 6 months younger than English equivalents due to different cut off dates at school entry.
_
Of course there are, but does it not balance out with the English students who started YR at just gone 4?

Many, many Scottish pupils go to University at 17. This is because the cut off for starting is at the end of Feb, not the end of August. So, pupils who are in the youngest half of their year group are likely to be 17 until, at the very latest, the end of February of their first year as undergraduates. It is so prevalent that some Universities give students different coloured wrist bands (Edinburgh does this) to show whether or not they are allowed alcohol at drinks parties. I teach in Scotland and we have few going at the end of S5 (about 5%) but still many are just 17.

Child starting aged 4 in September in England will be ready for university at aged 18.

Child aged 4 and a half in August in Scotland (February birthday cutoff will make such a child the youngest in class) will be 17 and a half at end of S6.

There is one less year in High School.

Is there? I didn't know that.

That's why you get a four year undergraduate course in a Scottish University being the equivalent of three years in England.

Scrub that last post - Advanced Higher in S6 is equivalent to A level. But I do then wonder why they don't insist on Advanced Highers followed by 3 year courses.

Glad I'm here then. 4 years was perfect, 3 would have left me feeling short-changed

Roseformeplease - of course some pupils go at 17. It was the 'a year earlier' comment from ItsAllGoingToBeFine that was confusing because I didn't realise we have one fewer year of school. I thought she meant after S5 and in my experience very few pupils did that because S6 was a big skive so why miss it. Plus, on all the threads about P1 deferral it seems to be the done thing, so the 17/18 thing would apply to even fewer pupils.

"I find a lot of the nationalism recently promoted by the SNP to boost their campaign for independence rather artificial. You can point to many points in history when Northern England and Scotland were part of the same country, so to pick out one period of history seems highly purposive. I also find the promotion of Gaelic almost a very deliberate and rather fake attempt to promote a very different Scottish culture."

Hmm, yes and no though, yes gaelic was never in many areas and yes it's buying into the whole romanticised version of Scotland, and I'm sure some of the promotion of Gaelic is pretty self serving, as much of politics is, but...

I grew up in what should have been a gaelic speaking area, but no longer is. It was on offer at school (in fact I did it, purely because I found it easier than French) but, pupils were actively discouraged from taking it as it isn't useful (as if poorly taught European languages are) by both parents and the school. People of my parents' generation don't speak it because their parents were discouraged from speaking it and so didn't pass it on.

It matters hugely to a lot of people that the language that 2 generations ago was their main language, was viewed as less useful than French, Spanish or German and so is now in it's death throes.

So while I'm absolutely sure it does help the SNP promote the 'difference' of Scotland, it is also a reflection of the people who can genuinely say that their language was taken away from them. There are still people alive who arrived at primary school not able to speak English and were caned for speaking Gaelic.

I was at uni at 17. Half the year are under 18.

If your birthday falls between Sept and February and you didn't defer for a year going into p1 you will go to uni at 17.

Fake I.D. a must for the pubs.