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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think small children shouldn't take up Tube seats?

308 replies

MrsRupertCampbellBlack · 04/03/2015 16:17

genuinely interested as I'm currently six months pregnant with my first child and I know this is going to be me in a couple of years!

But I keep seeing mums at rush hour on really busy Tubes sitting with a small child next to them taking up another seat. Surely the nicer/politer/more sensible thing to do would be for the mum to have the child on her lap and free up a seat for someone else?

OP posts:
keepitsimple0 · 09/03/2015 14:51

I get very tired of always having to explain myself to strangers.

because you get tired of explaining yourself, all children should stand?

People aren't mind readers. If you have an invisible disability you can't expect people to know without you telling them. Rather odd to have to point this out. You could be a perfectly fit person standing. You could be in agony. Unless you express your feelings, no one will know.

Thesnowmansnose · 09/03/2015 14:53

Crumbs. Strong feelings here.

  • it's nonsense to say that if you've 'paid' for your ticket, then you have more of a right to a seat than someone else. Freedom pass holders don't pay - but probably need seats far more than others. And in the same way that the costs of their travel are shared out amongst all of us, so are the costs of child travel, so parents (and everyone else) HAVE paid.
  • surely if someone badly needs a seat, then any decent person who can should try to make sure they get one. Might involve shuffling children/giving up your own place. But as others say, some children fall into the 'badly need a seat' group.
merrymouse · 09/03/2015 14:53

Fine, but apparently posters on this thread would be giving some child the evil eye for not offering their seat, not me.

Perhaps there should be a custom where at every tube station we all shout out "does anybody need my seat more than me!?" And then we all shuffle around for 5 minutes, being thrown here and there, but there isn't.

merrymouse · 09/03/2015 14:54

Which is probably best from a health and safety point of view.

keepitsimple0 · 09/03/2015 14:56

Expecting your kids to make way for the less able isn't a bad thing.

yup. and there is no disagreement on this point.

sparkysparkysparky · 09/03/2015 14:57

Don't worry, I'll be wearing my sticker so you will know I need a seat. Or I'll do what I normally do and just ask. I save deployment of the evil eye for other occasions.

GreenShadow · 09/03/2015 14:58

I'm afraid I have been rather saddened by many comments on this thread.

Some people might say this is what is wrong with this country - in many countries everyone (note, not just children) respects their elders automatically. In the far east, Indian sub continent etc it is second nature for the young and not so young to be much more considerate to their elders - and not just those from immediate family. Sad to say that this seems to have been lost in the UK. Every one is more concerned with themselves and seem to be teaching their children to be the same.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/03/2015 14:59

there is no disagreement on this point.

There is - that's what I have been teaching my child to do, and you seem to be making me out as some sort of heartless child-hater for doing so. (At least you weren't the one to bring Jimmy Saville into it, though - wtf?)

UptheChimney · 09/03/2015 15:02

Except that I've cited 18 months of my otherwise able-bodied life in which I had a visible disability (use of only one arm) on public transport, and rarely had these paragons of posters offering me a seat. I was offered one once by an elderly chap. I got sick of asking and being ignored or laughed at.

My experience was very different from that which people are theorizing about in this thread.

It gave me a brief insight into the day in, day out struggle for those more permanently impaired than I was. Having to ask every single time very quickly gets very very tiring just in itself.

Having to put yourself up for someone else's judgement about whether you need or deserve something. It sucks, frankly, so I really sympathise with ArcheryAnnie's POV.

Number3cometome · 09/03/2015 15:05

Sit your child on the seat and stand next to them.

sparkysparkysparky · 09/03/2015 15:05

and while we're doing extreme extrapolations, perhaps we could mention care home abuse of the elderly and vulnerable.
It's just a Tube seat. Be nice. Maybe someone needs it more than your precious.

merrymouse · 09/03/2015 15:29

I brought up Jimmy Saville, and I would bring him up again because the way children were expected to behave in the past and the way they were treated - in care homes, at school, at home - is linked. Perhaps Jimmy Saville is a bad example because he seemed to abuse everyone. However, it is definitely true to say that many people thought children were fair game because children should obey adults.

While it is true that in many countries people are expected to be deferential to their elders, these countries (India, China) generally have appalling human rights records.

The definition of good manners has changed, and for the better. I don't stand when the national anthem is played, I don't expect men to be more polite to me than they would be to an other man, I don't expect my children to stand when an adult enters the room. I do expect them to stand when somebody needs a seat more than they do, but not for every random adult they see - because that would be a bit bonkers given that they are more likely to cannon into somebody if the tube comes to an abrupt hault because they can't reach the bar, or be jostled out of my field of vision, which would be stupid.

It is true that an adult boarding the tube could have an invisible disability, but so too could any child.

keepitsimple0 · 09/03/2015 15:47

There is - that's what I have been teaching my child to do, and you seem to be making me out as some sort of heartless child-hater for doing so.

find me one person that disagrees with the statement that someone should give their seat to someone less able (that is what I quoted).

I didn't say you were a child hater. I said your teen has as much right to sit as I do, even though I am older than him. His feelings, in the tube car context, are just as important as mine, even though I am, gasp, more than double his age.

Some people might say this is what is wrong with this country - in many countries everyone (note, not just children) respects their elders automatically. In the far east, Indian sub continent etc it is second nature for the young and not so young to be much more considerate to their elders

while that may sounds great in some context, think of all the huge problems this creates. I am glad that the UK has to a large extent shed these antiquated ideas.

PilchardPrincess · 09/03/2015 16:16

But why? Why is it better for a 4yo to stand than a fit and healthy 20 yo? Because it's polite and respectful? But that makes no sense to me. If you want a seat why would you want a small child to stand rather than an adult?

I asked that question directly of someone earlier and they didn't say why they believed that, it just is, apparently.

If I need a seat I ask a fit looking adult if I can have one.

And this idea it's discriminatory. I prefer to stand and have my child sit as it hurts my legs to have them on me. That is a decision I make for a valid reason, others making judgements about people being in the wrong are not privy to their circumstances.

I just don't get why is better for a young child to stand than an able bodied adult, even stand for an able bodied adult.

whether people believe it or not, children who look like they will have trouble holding on safely are put in the vulnerable people category, and offered seats at an even higher rate than elderly or pregnant people without badges ime.

like I say I rarely travel with the dc on public transport and so speak as a commuter who includes smaller children in the group of people I will offer a seat to. And this had made people angry! bonkers.

KellyElly · 09/03/2015 16:30

I prefer to stand and have my child sit The judgey comment made about this upthread was really just like wtf!! I would rather stand than have my five year old squirming about on my knee. Nothing to do with her being a pwincess, or whatever bollocks was sprouted. It's for my comfort. She gets to sit and not fall about or get crushed and I as an able bodied adult have no problem with standing, so I do. It's more annoying for other passangers when kids are on knees as their legs are either poking into the person standing in front or banging the people sitting either side! Some utterly strange attitudes from a few of the posters on this thread. Luckily they don't seem to be shared by the majority of people I encounter on the tube.

Lweji · 09/03/2015 16:34

I don't expect men to be more polite to me than they would be to an other man,

Indeed.
The logical assumption from those saying younger people should automatically give their seats to adults in this thread is that men should also be giving seats to any women automatically. I don't want that anymore than I want to be given a seat by a child who is definitely more vulnerable than me in a crowd, or in a bus/tube that breaks suddenly.

Number3cometome · 09/03/2015 16:36

I would prefer my child to sit whilst I stand despite having a crippling back problem because your child is the height to get trampled on and potentially seriously hurt. They also cannot reach the handles to steady themselves and could potentially go flying should the train come to a halt.

PilchardPrincess · 09/03/2015 16:42

But that's no good, as a child has a seat while adults are standing, and so the child (ren if you have 2 sharing) must get up too Confused

sparkysparkysparky · 09/03/2015 16:44

Only if men promise to throw their capes over puddles when I cross the road.

SuperFlyHigh · 09/03/2015 16:48

They have a right to a seat as much as commuters/other fare paying passengers but say at rush hour I do think a parent where possible should seat them on their laps.

I've seen packed trains at rush hour where a child is happily sat at a seat where the child could either share with a sibling or sit on a parent's lap. this is on those trains where often there is little to no hand holding rails!

Having said that this morning I was sat in a priority seat on the bus (no room otherwise) a little boy was on with his DF, I offered the child the seat but his DF said he was fine and then they saw a spare seat anyway.

Also I don't understand KellyElly - my brother and I never squirmed on my DM's knee as children we just sat still.

SuperFlyHigh · 09/03/2015 16:49

Oh and no, I don't think children should stand, no, that's unsafe either way, have often seen children on buses/tubes stand when they can sway around with a jerky bus driver.

limitedperiodonly · 09/03/2015 17:17

I'd make them hang up by their fingernails.

KellyElly · 09/03/2015 17:26

Also I don't understand KellyElly - my brother and I never squirmed on my DM's knee as children we just sat still. Well done.

UndecidedNow · 09/03/2015 17:28

Well I'll speak as someone with 2 dcs who aren't living in London.
The day when we went to London, my dcs took a seat. They had no idea how to behave in the Tube, it was packed ( to mine and their eyes. Probably not to Londoners eyes).
But dc2 would loose his balance. There was the risk we would be separated by the stream of people going in and out.
So yes they sat down.

SuperFlyHigh · 09/03/2015 17:28

KellyElly - my point is, lots of us as DC (friends of ours) did the same... it was the done thing can't believe I am saying this, when I was young.