to think small children shouldn't take up Tube seats?

[MrsRupertCampbellBlack]

genuinely interested as I'm currently six months pregnant with my first child and I know this is going to be me in a couple of years!

But I keep seeing mums at rush hour on really busy Tubes sitting with a small child next to them taking up another seat. Surely the nicer/politer/more sensible thing to do would be for the mum to have the child on her lap and free up a seat for someone else?

The original post was about an (able-bodied) parent having a small, lap-sized child on their lap, rather than taking up a full seat while other adults stand. What is the objection to this? A single child on a single lap to let someone else sit seems to be a pretty basic and obvious courtesy.

When I am travelling with my teen, and there is an adult standing and he is sitting, I do nudge him to give up his seat - he is fit and has bags of energy, no hidden disabilities, and is likely to have had a day of leisure if we have been on the tube, not a long and exhausting day of work. That's basic courtesy as well, plus I think it's a good thing for him to get him to consider the needs of other people as well as himself. (If he's unwell or genuinely tired, I will let him sit.)

I do get cross when I have to stand (hidden disability - I quite often need to sit down but it isn't obvious unless I say it out loud) and there are young children who have seats on a crowded tube, but who are not sitting on them - they are climbing between the seat and their parent's lap, or kneeling up, or standing and sitting and standing and sitting. Either use the seat for your child or don't, but if the child isn't sitting in it, move then so that other people can use it!

as a rush hour commuter, I would rather see children sitting down, than having to worry about them being bashed by adults carrying laptops and other big bags. It is difficult to travel during rush hour as an adult, let alone as someone half the size. Some 11 or 12 year olds are still very short, but the tube is the only way for them to get to school

Thanks so much everyone for the replies. I definitely wasn't suggesting small children should stand up in favour of adults sitting! As ArcheryAnnie says - it's more about whether a small (as in toddler) child shouldn't be sat on mum's lap (assuming she's not pregnant, disabled, otherwise incapacitated) if the Tube is full and there are loads of other people standing?
Have seen a few people suggest that toddlers can kick off if they're not given their own seat which I have seen IRL…rolled my eyes in my child-free state but am sure that in a couple of years I will have a different perspective on that!

I was brought up not to be considerate of cunts.
This attitudeis what nowadays causes this type of problem.

And nothing to do with the attitude that another person should give an able-bodied, healthy, non-pregnant person just because they are who they are.

Southeastdweller I only respond in an intelligent fashion to posts deserving of it. Yours, as I said, was the most fucking stupid thing on this thread. Until I read assessment's drivel that is.

he is fit and has bags of energy, no hidden disabilities, and is likely to have had a day of leisure if we have been on the tube, not a long and exhausting day of work.

I am sure the loads of farm workers in London toiling in the fields all day appreciate his chivalry. yes, lots of us work, but many of us are in desk jobs and have been literally sitting all day. It would also be good for many adults to stand for a while.

He's a person with feelings too no doubt. I would find it very odd if he got up to let me sit (fully able bodied adult here).

I remember signs saying children should not remain seated while adult passengers are standing. My instinct is therefore to make dd stand but I would probably give her my seat if we were surrounded by men.

He's a person with feelings too no doubt.

Yes, he is. I don't know why you would need to point that out about a teen that is being considerate towards others. If someone offers you a seat, and you think it is better for you to stand, then politely decline. You aren't obliged to take it. Many other people might be grateful, especially if they haven't got a nice desk job like yours.

What is wrong with you all that you seem to think that it's a bad thing to teach children to consider other people's comfort as well as their own?

Depends, if at all possible I will put DC on my lap but not always possible with two, I would rather give them a seat to share and stand. If I saw someone who needed the seat more than them, elderly, pregnant etc I would make them stand but TBH I probably wouldn't for someone who didn't look in need. Travelling on the tube with small children is very little fun TBH and sometimes I would rather have them seated than standing.

'I remember signs saying children should not remain seated while adult passengers are standing.'

And there used to be ones that said, 'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish'.

Glad times have moved on.

I don't know why you would need to point that out about a teen that is being considerate towards others.

because, you don't apply this same standard to other adults. the implication is that this burden solely falls on the young, that the young should be giving deference to the older simply because they are older. I don't think we should be teaching children that.

He has as much right to sit as any other able bodied person. Why are teens and other young folk singled out for this?

Exactly expat.

It was also thought that jimmy saville was just an eccentric who raised money for charity.

Things really weren't better before.

It is quite adequate to teach your children to give up their seat for somebody who has more need because they are human beings, not because they are children who are less deserving of polite treatment.

Of course some parents and children are rude, but then so are some 28 year old childless adults.

Giving other passengers the evil eye because you have graded them according to your personal seat entitlement system is not a sign of good manners.

because, you don't apply this same standard to other adults. the implication is that this burden solely falls on the young, that the young should be giving deference to the older simply because they are older. I don't think we should be teaching children that.

Except I am not saying that.

I know he's fit. I know he has bags of energy. I know he has no hidden disabilities. I don't know that about other people. When he needs to sit, as I have already said, he sits. When he doesn't need to, he offers his seat up. I hope this continues as an adult - when he needs to sit, he sits, and when he doesn't he offers his seat up to someone who needs it more.

On the "burden on the young" - there are plenty of young people who have hidden disabilities, etc, but on the whole, younger people are more physically fit and more able to stand. I could stand when I was younger, very easily. I can't now. It's a biological thing for many of us, not one of "older people are worth more than younger ones".

Also wtf Jimmy Saville? That is a really bizarre addition to this conversation.

But anyway - you all carry on raising your children as little princes. I will try to raise a decent human being who considers others as well as himself.

You don't tend to get behaviour like that on the tube. We are a bit more civilised in this neck of the woods, maybe?

PilchardPrincess you do seem very ready to be personally vindictive and you're also denying the reality of my experience as a temporarily disabled person. That's nice.

I have to laugh at your belief that people in London are a bit more 'civilised'!

My experience was also on the Tube -- my job required that I worked in London at least one day a week. I'm afraid I rarely saw the civilised behaviour you write about on the Tube. As an able-bodied person, I'm fine on the Tube, with long experience of surviving rush hour, also experienced with a pram & small child yadd yadda.

However, with only 1 usable arm, and chronic pain/exhaustion, I simply stopped using the Tube & took buses (& taxis once I made a case to my employer that this was a 'reasonable adjustment' they needed to pay for). I was sick of being pushed, my arm (in sling & large cast for about a year) bumped, no consideration given to me at all ...

So, that's my experience. It's different to yours, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. And you could stop your rather disabilist victim-blaming actually.

The point of jimmy saville is that he and others like him were able to operate in a world where some people's rights were valued more than others. This is still true to an extent, but things are changing, and part of this is that we don't doff our caps, children are taught that they have value and I don't expect a man to hold a door open for me any more than I would a woman. The idea that there was a golden age of good manners is ridiculous when you really look at how people were treated.

Of course you should give up your seat to somebody who needs it more. Nobody has argued that you shouldn't. The point is that the person giving up the seat shouldn't automatically be a child because of some outdated concept of respect, particularly when, as on the tube, a child may not be able to hold on securely.

I know he's fit. I know he has bags of energy. I know he has no hidden disabilities. I don't know that about other people. When he needs to sit, as I have already said, he sits. When he doesn't need to, he offers his seat up. I hope this continues as an adult - when he needs to sit, he sits, and when he doesn't he offers his seat up to someone who needs it more.

what about when he wants to sit?

you certainly didn't make clear that adults should follow his lead. That unless they need to sit, they too should stand for another adult, or child presumably. Is that correct? or is it just a one way street?

you all carry on raising your children as little princes.

I tell my kid to get up whenever anyone is less able to stand about. So my six year old gets up if a 4 year old is about, another 6 year old who isn't as strong, or a teen who has a limp. I am teaching my child to have empathy, not blind obedience to age.

But you wouldn't know if, say, it was me standing in front of your little princes, all taking a seat each while I stand. I get very tired of always having to explain myself to strangers.

But no, you carry on. What your children want will always be more important.

You make a good point Archery (hidden disability here too). Expecting your kids to make way for the less able isn't a bad thing. And sometimes, an elderly fellow passenger is just an elderly fellow passenger and not an apologist for racism and child abuse.

But you wouldn't know if, say, it was me standing in front of your little princes, all taking a seat each while I stand.

In that case, why not be upset that the pp doesn't give you her seat? Why demand it from the child?
Chances are that by the time you got there, other adults were sitting there, instead of the child.
I'm afraid that if you have an invisible disability, you need to get a sticker asking for a seat, or ask for one yourself.
Anytime I have felt sick on public transport, and have requested a seat, people have been very nice.

Just ordering my "sticker" now. W tf?

But apparently this child should also automatically give up their seat for me too because I am an adult, and I ran 4 miles this morning.

(Even though I ran 4 miles this morning, not because I ran 4 miles this morning)

And if you don't need the seat, you say "No, thanks".