Drinking in pregnancy. The message still isn't registering

[kissmethere]

Just read an article about the effects of alcohol in pregnancy. Children left with lasting effects of their mothers drinking habits and the mothers are saying they had no idea this would happen. Seriously?
I drank Guinness during my first pregnancy 18 years ago, very small amount at the end, adhering to the old wives tale that it was full of iron and malt. I knew back then that there was no way spirits or beer or loads of Guinness or much more should be consumed as it was bad for the baby. That was 18 years ago! I knew a woman when I was growing up who's son had permanent bone and facial damage as his mum was an alcoholic and fell over when she was pregnant with him, they had to operate on him while in the womb.
My point is how is it that some women still think alcohol in pregnancy is ok or claim they didn't know what damage it can do to the baby. What help are they getting if they truly know they have an addiction?

If the OP wants to have an informed, helpful conversation about addictions, here's my two cents worth... There are very interesting projects going on. Her Way Home is one. They try to minimise the ill effects of addictions in pregnancy and early life.

What they have seen is that by engaging women and their families, feeding and housing them, counselling, helping them seek help for related issues (DV, prostitution, trauma, malnutrition, lack of pre-natal care) they can minimise the effects on the child. If a women has access to these things, she is more like to stop use, although that is not the main focus of the project.

A lot of children who might have been very damaged (and the statistics bear this out) are not. A lot of the issues with drugs and alcohol in pregnancy are not the direct result of the substance but also the surrounding issues. Take those away the the mother and baby are much more likely to do well.

Don't get me wrong. Alcohol is still a nasty drug and one of the nastiest in life pregnancy but the judgy, finger-wagging puritanical attitude of some keeps women AWAY from services and healthcare. It is much more satisfying, cheaper and easier to blame women. It doesn't actually work to prevent harm.

I studied this for a time at Uni and back then (17 years ago now) there had never been a case of FAS in a child whose mother had 1-3 units a week. It wasn't a case of ignorant pregnant women ignoring the Daily Mail because they couldn't give up their wine. It's a serious condition caused by excessive alcohol consumption during pregnancy. If a woman's baby was born with FAS after the mum saying she'd had 1-2 small glasses of wine a week the assumption would be that she was severely underestimating her units and/or lying. I've not had a drink during either of my pregnancies but I wouldn't have a problem with a small glass if I fancied one. You're conflating FASand alcohol addiction with informed, low intake.

OP, your judgemental attitude is foul, especially considering you drank in your pg. FAS usually results from pregnant mothers consuming large amounts of alcohol, probably on a regular basis. Those mothers deserve your pity, not your disdain. So yeah, you are being pretty darned U!

MrsTerryPratcett that sounds ideal. That's also what I was asking in my original post.
and the poster who asked, I found out I was pregnant at 10 weeks and stopped drinking. On reflection yes I was able to. I appreciate that for others it isn't as easy.

I remember having a small glass of baileys once whilst pg with DC1 and I'm not an alcoholic and didn't damage him.
Getting lashed the whole time and occasionally having a small amount of alcohol aren't the same thing.

Oh and WRT your post's title, the message is getting through. I don't know anyone who regularly drank during pregnancy but I know plenty who worried themselves sick ( and I mean absolutely beside themselves) about the half a bottle of wine they had before they knew they were pregnant. For one of my friends it completely ruined her pregnancy and her stress levels were through the roof worrying about this with very little need to.

In your opening post you say you drank a 'very small amount at the end, adhering to the old wives tale that it was full of iron and malt'. And this was 18 years ago? I'm sorry but no one has believed Guinness is 'good' for pregnant women since the 1940's.

I had half a lager every 2 weeks in my first pregnancy because I read I was allowed more but decided to cut the amount by a quarter to be extra safe, in this pregnancy I've had none as the smell of alcohol makes me BOAK, I however didn't use painkillers once in my first pregnancy an this time I have had to use them quite a bit.

I think the key is minding your own business and not prejudging people or trying to override the NHS guidelines with your own opinions. That would be really beneficial

But kissmethere, if you're judging mothers who drink during pregnancy why are you any better for drinking for the first 10 weeks when the vast majority of the damage would be done? So what is your actual point? You don't understand why people do the same as you?

and what if you have to take meds that contain alkohol?
what if you eat over ripe fruit?
yeasty bread?

I feel so strongly about the scaremongering of women when they're pregnant. I did an awful lot of research into FAS some year ago and get very irritated when I read some of the half-arsed non-truths that people have got from the DM/similar, which they then spout at others.

There is an awful lot of judgmental crap on this thread.

I've had someone pass judgement on my use of pethadine during childbirth because i had been in labour for 3 days and was in agony. Apparently this was selfish as I gets my baby stoned and stops him from taking everything in. Isn't it always the least informed people with the biggest mouths?

The pethadine was administered by the hospital, I made it sound like I did it myself at home

This ridiculous thread has reminded me of an occasion when I was 8 months pg with DD. It was New Year's Eve, we had another couple round who were also pg. I asked DH to make me a small glass of Buck's Fizz in time for the bells and offered one to pg friend. She replied no, she would never want to give her child FAS I smiled and nodded, then, literally at that moment, she got up and joined her husband outside for a cigarette.

I sat with my Buck's Fizz and fumed.

Because there's no bloody evidence that low amounts do any harm, plenty of evidence that low amounts do no harm (and possibly even some good!), from multiple, large scale studies!

I drank when I felt like it during pregnancy - as it turns out, for the first few months I couldn't stomach anything that smelled (coffee, wine, beer), and for the last few months I was drinking ridiculous amounts of orange juice (I couldn't get enough.. 2 litres a day or more sometimes), but for the middle few I carried on as usual, having read multiple studies and satisfied myself it did no harm. How the hell did we make it out of the middle ages if moderate alcohol drinking does such terrible things?

People are very quick to demonise alcohol, but dismiss multiple studies showing other things that do harm to foetuses - which I'm not going to list here, because women are policed enough without adding more tiny, tiny worries to their pregnancy.

I work with children with ASN, some of whom have FAS. I can assure you that their mothers drank far more than the weekly limits per day.

I didn't touch a drop after I saw that positive line on the test in either pregnancy, this is not because I'm too thick to know that a couple of units won't do any harm it was just the choice that suited me.

I hate that regardless of which stance you take on this you are looked down on by someone, if you drink a tiny amount you are selfish and if you don't drink you are thick. As if pregnancy isn't stressful enough.

Oh and on the smoking front (possibly the same for other addictions too?), if you're a heavy smoker Doctors don't always recommend giving up because the increased stress can also cause issues. So cutting down is often advised.

Oh goodness shitebag - it's entirely up to you whether you drink or not! We all make decisions every day that increase or decrease risk, we all pick and choose which risks we're happy with.

What's nasty is being judgemental in either direction.

So the basic premise is that some people are twats who do stupid things?

Well no shit Sherlock. Nothing really to do with pregnancy though.

Totally agree Chunky, sorry if I came across as judgemental to those who choose to drink responsibly in pregnancy. I do think its up to the individual and tbh I'm pretty sure its a tiny, tiny risk anyway.

Drinking responsibly, adhering to guidelines, in pregnancy is fine.

Drinking over the guidelines, or to excess is not.

What part of that message isn't registering with you OP? Your post is the one that is confusing the issue surely! More judgemental silliness.

I think part of the issue is that it is impossible to do a full clinical study on this which would involve 1000s of pregnant women imbibing set amounts of alcohol and analysing the results, discounting for other factors. For obvious reasons! That would really be the only way categorically to say what the boundaries are, and put a number to cause/effect. So instead:

a) we rely on self-reports, and most people will under-report through embarrassment. This won't be just FAS cases, but also the vast majority of people with healthy babies will say oo, I only had 1/2 a sherry on the last Thursday of the month, when actually that's a bit of a porkie. But therefore their reported intake gets classed as the safe one.

b) we also only really look at levels when something goes wrong. So, as per the first point, the Mum of a FAS baby will be questioned and admit to maybe 2/3 glasses a day, so that then becomes the danger point, when actually it may have been a litre of vodka. She won't want to tell the truth given things like the recent court case, baby being taken away etc. I've had 3 healthy babies and no one's ever asked me what I drank during pregnancy, which was obviously 'safe' (but, certainly in the first trimester, unbeknownst, a lot).

Don't really know what to do about this. Could MN maybe do an anonymous survey in which we all crossed our hearts and promised to be truthful? I COMPLETELY agree that FAS is awful, and people need to be educated. This is in no way to diminish the perils of large quantities of consumption during pregnancy. But the problem is the current scaremongering is preaching to the choir and just panicking and patronising women who're terrified and objectified enough as it is. And stress is also a big factor when it comes to pregnancy complications...

The message certainly is registering. A poster on here started multiple panicked threads about the alcohol she had consumed prior to realising she was pregnant - she was so frightened and anxious she was seriously considering terminating a much wanted pregnancy. She continued with it, but was absolutely destroyed with guilt and stress. Then another poster was wracked with terror after kissing her boyfriend when he'd had a sip of beer in her third trimester. The message is registering, OP. The hysterical, ill-informed, fear-mongering message that seeks to put women in their place. The judgemental, sneering message that seeks to condemn and despise women rather than to help and support them or their babies. The message is registering. I don't know why you think it isn't.

It's not doing any good, obviously, and it's likely doing actual harm, but it is registering.

You put your unborn baby at more risk when you get in a car than when you have a small glass of wine. Life is a series of risk assessments. You're not an alcoholic because you have that small glass. You aren't doing it because you can't resist, it's because you've made a sensible and informed decision that it's not actually a risk at all because no harm has ever come to a baby from a single drink every now and again in pregnancy.

The harm caused by spiteful, misogynistic, fear-mongering, ill-informed judgement? That's incalculably immense.

What a stupid thread.

Great post Jelly

I remember that thread you talk about, where the poster was considering terminating because she had drunk before she knew she was pregnant. Awful.

Excellent post, Jelly.