Drinking in pregnancy. The message still isn't registering

[kissmethere]

Just read an article about the effects of alcohol in pregnancy. Children left with lasting effects of their mothers drinking habits and the mothers are saying they had no idea this would happen. Seriously?
I drank Guinness during my first pregnancy 18 years ago, very small amount at the end, adhering to the old wives tale that it was full of iron and malt. I knew back then that there was no way spirits or beer or loads of Guinness or much more should be consumed as it was bad for the baby. That was 18 years ago! I knew a woman when I was growing up who's son had permanent bone and facial damage as his mum was an alcoholic and fell over when she was pregnant with him, they had to operate on him while in the womb.
My point is how is it that some women still think alcohol in pregnancy is ok or claim they didn't know what damage it can do to the baby. What help are they getting if they truly know they have an addiction?

Also definitely don't leave the toy in.

I actually cannot fathom of the stupidity of people saying that unless something is proven safe, it shouldn't be done.
Drinking Orange juice is not proven safe. Drinking tap water is not proven safe.
Hell, I don't think sleeping in a bed under a duvet at night hasn't been proven safe.
Are people really truly unable to comprehend what it means when something which has been shown to at low risk of causing harm?
Can any of these idiot posters name a single thing that has been proven totally safe for pregnant women? Just one.

NancyRaygun if you think that pointing out that exceeding the weekly limit for non pregnant women (1-2 glasses red wine every other day could be as much as 18 units/week) is judgemental then I'm not sure what more can be said.

After ttc for yrs the optimal health of dc and reduction of mc chances was most important to me.
So no alcohol for 9m nor during bf. Clearly no smoking either.
The advice is not to drink, because they dont know for certain, also i think this is for the best, if women are bothered enough to argue they want it despitethe advice, then they are likely more dependent on it to relax than they think.
We dont sell alcohol to under 18s, its a controlled substance in a way, most people dont choose to feed it to a newborn or during weaning.

Im a lightweight, feel tipsy, sleepy after a half so not hard to imagine what it could do to a baby.

It is also the man's baby too but they have no choice about what she does smoking etc.
I feel more strongly about the smoking though, its clear some women dont prioritise the health of the baby over shortterm hardship. I say that as me and dsis both have asthma, had eczema plus other possibly related issues after dmum smoked in pg and until i was 20.
As advice for drinking has changed recently, its certainly possible more evidence will come out showing its bad even at 1 unit per week and then you start putting together how your dc has attention issues/memory etc, how would you feel as even now everyone knows its not doing the baby good.
Of course other things are dangerous in pg. in fact im not going to drink too much OJ due to sugar content. But most of these things i cant avoid.
I tend to put myself in position of baby. Would i be annoyed at mum drinking/smoking/ driving? I do avoid the cheese etc. but cant avoid cp, slapped cheek so accept these risks.
The people paying the highest price are the parents of fas children/ asthmatics and even more the child themself but everyone pays though health services and schooling.
I had pethidine in labour - i didnt want it but i wasnt even allowed g&a instead.
I agree obesity in the mum is not going to be good for baby and it certainly seems a waste of resouces having them need to be consultant - led for this. (Though i guess theres lots of unnecessary calories in alcohol too)
Maybe the effects of alcohol in pg will become more obvious if more people follow the zero intake.

Years ago, before I had DS (who is 23), I watched a Horizon programme about FAS. It would appear children who have this have brains that have smoother edges. They concluded that the neurones that form the brain had not migrated far enough, during the stage that the brain is being formed. This sort of damage had only been seen in some of children of people with significant alcohol problems.

There was no evidence of any damage with smaller amounts of alcohol, although there was no way of telling what damage they should be looking for in children who appeared perfectly normal.

Anyway, it was a serious risk if you take in large amounts of alcohol daily, and they thought that if you wanted to be careful and absolutely sure, you should not drink at all up to 16 weeks. However, the biggest damage was probably caused in the very early weeks and the people most likely at risk of having a child with FAS were probably least likely to realise they were pregnant early on etc .

The science does not seem to have moved on very much, but the arbitrary limit imposers have been out in force.

its certainly possible more evidence will come out showing its bad

You could say this about literally anything.

However, the biggest damage was probably caused in the very early weeks and the people most likely at risk of having a child with FAS were probably least likely to realise they were pregnant early on etc .

This is why I banged on about not drinking just in case you accidentally got pregnant which the doom-mongers haven't addressed once.

The reality is you probably shouldn't drink a huge amount of alcohol - at any time - just in case. Everything in moderation.

ErotomanicIdiot Pointing it out = fine. Making a judgement when you don't know the details (unless you have been rootling around my kitchen cupboards and know how big my glasses are) = not fine.

But you have illustrated nicely the point that women judge other women. I don't believe the amount I drink will harm my baby. Obviously. Most educated non addicted women will make their own choices. What gets me is peddling ignorant drama and scaring women with documentary "facts" (not saying you did this ErotomanicIdiot) and judging other people's informed choices (am saying you did this)

Alcohol is a potent teratogen. That is a fact. It can have a milder or stronger effect based on doseage and based on an individuals physical make up and other factors.
The choice of whether to take anything that is a teratogen, whilst pregnant, apart from those drugs and substances already banned, is up to the individual.
We all have free choice and we choose which 'experts' or 'studies' to believe.
We more than likely believe the studies that match what we want to hear based on what we prefer to do.

Where there is any doubt, I would rather not take the risk. Obviously, others are prepared to.

Careful everyone. Davsmum has found Wikipedia...

davsmum what did you clean yourself and your house with while you were pregnant?

Did you eat anything with sweetener?

There is doubt about a huge number of things, did you avoid all those entirely too?

sparechange If you have no evidence anything in my post is not true - then your post is pointless. FYI - I have not looked at Wikipedia - I have read some studies on Teratogens.

Alibabs Again - this thread is about alcohol. If I was told that any of the things you mention were teratogens - I would avoid them where possible. It is always possible to avoid drinking alcohol.

Read studies have you Davsmum? Reeeeaaallly? Your post stinks of Wikipedia and of someone who has discovered a new, big word in an attempt to add weight to their viewpoint. If you try to convince me otherwise I will do what you have done through this thread - shut my mind off completely and rigidly refuse to listen la la la!

If you want to read some studies then read the numerous studies on alcohol consumption during pregnancy that show that low alcohol intake causes no harm to he child. There has never been a documented case of FAS in a person drinking 1-2 units a week. All the evidence points to the fact that the harmful intake level is not variable from person to person but frequent heavy drinking is what causes the most risk.

In most cases, if someone drinks enough to cause FAS then they are an alcoholic and have no choice of abstaining. Is it any wonder with some of the attitudes displayed on this thread that they might hesitate in asking for help to stop.

Causes of teratogenesis can broadly be classified as:
Toxic substances, such as, for humans, drugs in pregnancy and environmental toxins in pregnancy.
Vertically transmitted infection
Lack of nutrients. For example, lack of folic acid in the nutrition in pregnancy for humans can result in spina bifida.
Physical restraint. An example is Potter syndrome due to oligohydramnios in humans.
Genetic disorders

Ooo look wiki talks about folic acid. What page did I mention that? The advice by the experts is to take it whilst trying to conceive and then during the first trimester.

Does this mean if you don't you are an evil bad mum?

Decaff Teratogens is not a big word, unless you are still reading kids books. Nothing I wrote is from Wikipedia. So the stink is probably coming from your own lack of understanding.
I doubt you know my viewpoint because you are not actually responding to what I have said.
There are new studies looking into the 'less severe' or 'milder' effects from alcohol. Not all are picked up at birth. There are concerns that speech delays, language, and adhd and behavioural problems can be the result of alcohol on a developing foetus when drunk in moderation.
You can't claim that alcohol in small amounts causes no harm, because you do not know. You don't think it does. You hope it doesn't.
If alcohol can cause effects on an adult brain, which is does in even moderate amounts, then it can certainly cause problems in the developing brain of a child.

I am all for choice but I am surprised so many people on here are so adamant it does no harm when in fact they don't actually know that. They want absolute proof it harms a baby before they will consider giving up alcohol. Seeing what alcohol can do, and knowing it is a drug, I would think it is more likely to do harm even without reports that it does. It seems like alcohol is not something people are prepared to give up, even for 9 months.

Yanbu. I don't really see the point in taking unnecessary risks with your unborn child.

Well said Davsmum

Oh dear Davsmum. You keep digging that hole. Just caught up with the whole thread and your ignorance has had me ricocheting back and forth between laughter and disbelief.

Anyway, another anecdote for you. When DS was about a year old I went out for dinner with him and my friend, a health visitor. I had a glass of red with my meal before bfing DS.

A mother at the next table made a great show of tut-tutting to her friend, both of whom had children of a similar age with them.

My health visitor friend had great joy in informing me, loudly, that there was most likely more alcohol in the fruit juice they were feeding their babies than in the breast milk I was feeding DS.

Luckily I rarely encounter such judgmental loons IRL but it's heartening to know, through MN, that they exist.
Cheers Davsmum. (Raises glass of wine - oh shit maybe I shouldn't be drinking - after all, as a fertile female there's a chance I could be pg and not know it yet. Think of the baybeeeeee!)

I didn't take folic acid pre conception or during the first 12 week.

I should probably be reported to social services.

Love a thread like this. So much judgement fluffs cushions and gets settled in *

Yes, Moomin. You should.
And you should also mention to SS the bagged salads and deli meat you may have eaten (more of a listeria risk than blue cheese) and perhaps whether or not you associated with any smokers during those 9 months.
Passive smoking is such a risk that it would really have been best to lock yourself in your house, were it not for those darned risky stairs.
If you get upduffed again, buy a bungalow, sell your car and take the full 9 months off work,to be spent at home with no electrical appliances on.
Anything else isn't worth the risk. And it's only 9 months, remember.

Davsmum, the reason I haven't responded to your nonsense is because I don't want to engage with someone who is so fixed in their prejudices that they aren't listening to the logical arguments made by other PPs.

With that in mind, I'm sure you'll excuse me if I ignore your nasty vitriol towards me in your last post. Note I didn't once attack you personally, merely one of your posts, so why don't you back off thank you please?

The point is here is that no one actually knows definitively what harm alcohol can do and how much can cause issues/damage or whatever you want to call it. FAS is clearer, but as others have pointed out there may be more non specific emotional or behavioural issues. FASD (foetal alcohol spectrum disorder) rather than FAS is being increasingly diagnosed. You can talk about making an informed choice but the evidence isn't actually that great. Abstinence clearly leads to no damage, one or two drinks a week unlikely, any more than this, who knows? Lots of strong opinions here, usually the strength of someone's opinion is inversely proportional to their level of knowledge. You can choose to err on the side of caution or go with whatever feels right for you. And we all judge, that's human nature. Doesn't mean any of us are right.

C'mon people. Davsmum is quite obviously trolling us all, because no rational person could actually keep spouting such nonsense, especially when most of it is so badly cut and pasted from the Internet that it can serve no other purpose than to drive a sensible person mad with frustration...