To suspect SIL has said something awful to DD who is 6?

[Gooogle]

To give some background, I had a very long thread about my husband's family, in particular my mother in law, a few months ago. It was called Utterly Depressed about my MIL. Sorry I don't know how to post a link.

Briefly, huge back history of MIL (and to some extent, SIL), wanting to be Mum to my DD who is 6 yrs old.

I have limited all contact - no texts or calls. We have to visit them every couple of months if there is a family occasion. I keep it friendly and pretend. Try not to say much. When I do speak MIL ignores me in a lovely passive aggressive way. It's like a stupid act we all put on.

DH saw a counsellor. He now sees that his DM dislikes me. That's huge progress. I am much happier, as the balance has shifted and now MIL would not dare to overstep the mark with me. She may well still bitch about me (I am sure she does!). But I really don't care.

Now I'm worried about my SIL. She is in her 40's, desperate to meet someone and marry, have a DC. Career that didn't go well, still relies on her parents for financial support. As the years go by she gets more and more sad/bitter and naturally there is a little bit of resentment towards me as I have DH and DD.

We visited PIL at the weekend, SIL was there. SIL had also seen DD the previous week. SIL tells me while we were at PIL's house, that my DD had told her the previous week that she was lonely and often has no one to play with. Apparently DD said she felt sad all the time. In reality my DD has friends and cousins to play every other day and spends lots of lovely time with me too. DD talks to me when she has a problem, and she has never told me she is lonely.

On the way home from PIL this week end, DD had a huge, HUGE emotional outburst. She was crying and her world was ending. Everything seemed to be wrong, DD said she had a terrible and awful life, never had anyone to play with, had to help me with chores all the time (hardly! She has the chores of making her bed and tidying her toys once a week). Everything was awful, no one gives her any attention.

I have never heard DD speak like this before. Never seen her in such a state either.

While we were at PIL, my SIL had taken her upstairs to have a chat. She often does this and I dislike it because I worry about what she may be saying to her.

SIL is very emotionally immature and she would like to feel she is closer to my DD than I am.

I have concerns about what SIL said to my DD. DD's outburst on the way home may be completely unrelated to her secret chat with SIL but I am worried they are linked.

My thoughts are that SIL has somehow manipulated DD into thinking all the things that came spilling out when she was crying on the way home. Could that be it? Feel sick thinking about having to now manage my DD around another member of the family.

I am going to have a real think about what kind of sentences I can use to teach DD a little. About the behaviour she has been subjected to so far as well as for the future.

If anyone has suggestions please do post them. I would appreciate help with this.

DD currently feels some sort of 'obligation' to please MIL and SIL. She feels that in some way. She also knows they will let her get away with anything at all and always try to please her, but she is able to differentiate that that's not always a good thing. She has been conditioned to believe MIL and SIL should hold a very important position in her life. I think that comes from all the "we love you more than anyone in the world" and from them telling her constantly how wonderful and amazing she is. She is wonderful and amazing, but they say it for the wrong reasons.

Can you go NC? Or very limited contact? That would be much easier than trying to teach a very young child to cope with this.

I would teach her to keep her head down and not engage, frankly.

Tell her to keep agreeing with them when they say things, but (and this is the important part) not to volunteer any information that she feels shy or sensitive about. I'd advise her to think of nice things that she'd talk to anyone about (tv programmes, music, I don't know!) and to talk to them about those things if she feels like she needs to make conversation. Tell her that you and her dad are the best people to talk to about anything that might be making her sad because you're her parents and are more likely to understand and to be able to help, whilst SIL and MIL 'can be a bit silly sometimes and don't always know how best to help, so they might get it a bit wrong by accident and make you feel sad'.

It's annoying that you have to consider how it might sound repeated back to your DH; I'd suggest having this chat with her in front of your DH, so no misunderstandings can occur. It might also put a bit of shame into him if he realises that your DD is being caused upset by his mum and sister's shitty behaviour. Alternatively, he might be a bit dismissive/jokey and dilute the message, so you might be better off not saying this in front of him.

Did you say you'd discussed this with him, op? Sorry, I've forgotten.

Can you move hundreds of miles away? This situation is awful and your DD and your relationship with DD need protecting from these scheming women.

Plumping's advice re not sharing any details is absolutely key!! I just don't know how you get it across to a six year old. In my case, I divulge NOTHING of any consequence and haven't for absolutely years. Therefore EVERYONE in my family knows that if the individual says "Oh isn't it wonderful/awful/tragic about Proceeding going here/doing this/feeling that." (delete as appropriate) in reality they know NOTHING of it and are either a) trying to make themselves look big or b) fishing and the listener should smile and nod and say nothing else.

If your DD already feels an obligation to them you really do need to sit down with your DH and have a really serious conversation about going NC or as NC as he can bear. Seriously, even if you know it's irrational, you don't shake that feeling.

• "You are so much like your Aunty. You are so much like your Aunty ". Then she went on to attribute her characteristics to my SIL. None to DD's mother or father!

I have exaclty the same thing, Mil saw DD recently and that was all I heard, oh you take after your aunt, oh your a daddys girl, and total pushing of aunty. Oh long fingers like aunty, oh your slim light aunty etc.

If I say too much about SIL and MIL to DD I may push her towards feeling sorry for them? She is a child who is concerned that those around her are happy and tries to help her friends, puts others before herself.

^ this is my problem, they are too young to understand nuances at the moment. Mil cries all the time, she must have done it in front of DD and dd feels really sorry for her.

I think the earlier ideas about having hobbies that reduce the time available to visit MIL and SIL are good.

No need to go into too much detail about why these people aren't good for DD. I guess it's a variation of the distraction technique. She'll get involved in the activities and won't miss them as much as she may have if the visits had been reduced with no activities in place.

The child is 6.

My DS was 5 when he had to have it gently explained to him that his father had to leave because he was (mostly emotionally) abusive. He got it. over time there has been more information as he was ready, but lying to him was never an option. I was well aware that if he were to see that I had betrayed him, he could blame me and i could lose him.

You can't tell kids a pack of lies - they need to know that not everyone is who they seem to be and the 'by accident' stuff is wrong, plain wrong. they have to trust us as parents to protect them, they need to know sometimes that we have to act decisively to do this.

It's better to say that some people say things that mean other things and it takes a great deal of thought and sometimes age to really understand, and that parents have to make difficult decisions to protect themselves and others.

You need to get DH well onside and get him to agree to allowing you to create real distance between this little girl and these poisonous women.

Even if he agrees to give you and DD some breathing space from his family, so that only he goes for the next few decades months, and then review the situation, it's better than having your child exposed to this kind of insidious abuse and poison.

I'm sorry but hell would freeze over before I let my children anywhere near either of them ever again and if my dh had a problem I would seriously be thinking my relationship with him and would tell him that, time for subtlety is well and truly over.

Don't get me wrong, I really feel for your dh, he is also a victim of this and has been conditioned to agree to things, but he has a child now, the well being of that child takes priority over his family.

I would reassure your dd that all is good and she has lots of friends and lots of people who care about her her. If she says anything about her gran or aunt then just say that sometimes they are a bit silly and don't think things through properly.

But hissy, using the phrase 'by accident' gives SIL and MIL the benefit of the doubt and will also make it look less like the OP is slating them. Her DD will be conflicted enough without feeling that she has to pick a side, so if she's offered a 'Feel sorry for SIL and MIL but be wary around them' option then she might gratefully choose that one, as it's a good compromise. Talking about how people say things that mean other things might just render her paranoid about everyone she meets, and she's confused enough as it is.

As an aside, I think that a lot of people engage in passive-aggressive emotional bullshit without actually knowing that that is in fact what they are doing, because it is so completely normal to them. It is just barely possible that the OP's family are doing this; I see claims of 'they KNOW what they're doing' all the time on Mumsnet and I'm not sure it's true on a lot of occasions. People think about their actions far less than we imagine, IMO.

Therefore, IF they are doing this in an unpremeditated fashion (and I'll admit that it's a big if) then using the term 'by accident' is justified and gives them the benefit of the doubt. If it's hard for the OP to remove them from her family's life altogether then they'll need to find some way to peacefully coexist without giving in to emotional manipulation, and to my mind this is a good way to do so.

Sorry for the digression OP, just wanted to explain my thinking a bit! Opinions will differ, here as anywhere else

I think that if you cut them off completely right now, your DD might feel its her fault if that makes sense.

But I would slowly extract your family from them - less frequent visits, shorter visits etc. Wind it down a lot.

I don't think you need to address this stuff with your DD. I honestly don't think any of it will stick, unless you appear to be making a big deal of it. Sometimes the best way to make something slide away is not to give it the attention. Best of luck with it all anyway.

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/

op have you heard of this campaign its worth running by your Dd at some point after this upset has blown over and you can tag on the end...

anyone who says or talks to you and makes you feel sad should be told ot mummy or daddy because unless you have been naughty etc anyone who says thongs that mae you fee sad are not nice.

I would seriously be thinking my relationship with him and would tell him that, time for subtlety is well and truly over

And if your relationship is over, you have no say at all when your dc see your in laws as its al in visiting rights and the in laws will domiante the weak man to see the child and it will be even worse .

But I would slowly extract your family from them - less frequent visits, shorter visits etc. Wind it down a lot.

we have done this but still get lots of martyr like behaviour from mil, lots of crying etc.

but there should NOT be any benefit of the doubt. There isn't any in what has been described here.

The whisking off, the drip drip drip of poison by the MIL (now apparently halted) the insidious undermining of parental relationships, the soul destroying and self esteem battering in convincing a little girl that she has no friends and is lonely.... we love you, your parents don't.... need i go on?

this is a warped calculated and fucked up campaign of disinformation designed specifically to damage a little girl and destroy her world. The purpose of it is to acquire this little one as a feed for their own purposes. Her needs/welfare/happiness are deliberately being overlooked/compromised to provide these women with the power and control they crave. They want someone to worship them, and they don't care what they do to get it.

This child is 6. at this age, and with these characters, WE get to pick the sides.

there is nothing to feel sorry for MIL or SIL at all here, they are certainly not 'feeling sorry for this 6 yo or her parents.

They are too toxic for adults, they are absolutely off the charts dangerous to a small child.

IF the child mentions seeing them, then the subject can be fluffed or distracted by saying something along the lines of 'Maybe one day, we'll have to see what's what' and leave it there.

When she gets to an age where its possible to talk more freely, then the subject of not seeing them can be explained in terms of some people add to our lives and make us feel good, others sadly are not so nice to be with and we have to be a bit more careful. I'd say that it may not be forever, but untilI was sure of her safety/welfare, that there would be no more visits.

EVEN IF there was a case of this pair not knowing what they are doing (not likely as they have modified and adjusted their approaches, gaining in deviousness) it's our job as parents to protect our children from such risk/harm/danger.

this child is already showing signs of people pleasing and erosion of self due to these women. she has already been conditioned to put her own self last and others first. In context, there has been damage done already, which if acted upon now and effort put into recovery and remedy, may go a long way to prevent further harm and risk of dysfunctional/abusive relationships in her future.

This stuff is precisely what makes victims of Domestic Violence.

i know that it may come across harshly and be hard to comprehend, but you simply can not underestimate how slow drip manipulation/comments and emotional blackmail can destroy very young children

we have done this but still get lots of martyr like behaviour from mil, lots of crying etc

This is a ploy, designed to suck you back in. ignore it.

Let her cry, she's harmful. never EVER lose sight of this!

We wound down our time with my MIL. She sometimes tries to make a fuss but she never wins so she has learned to take what she can get and not have a tantrum. She once even slammed her finger in a cupboard in a bid for sympathy and to make us stay the night. It didn't work.

I agree with the concern about if the marriage breaks down, there will be a loss of control of access to these people and fuel too to destroy the OP.

The H has to be on board and he has to see what is happening to his family. How his little girl is being badly affected, and how he must act with you to stop it.

the marriage and family MUST be preserved to protect this little girl. the inlaws need to be put out of the equation.

If your DH is supportive then I would strike while the iron is hot and have a talk about reducing contact A LOT.

And I would make sure to drop in the idea that - long term - what will also happen is your DD is very likely to grow to dislike them. They make her feel uncomfortable now - she can't articulate it yet, but they create feelings of unease, guilt, the questioning makes her feel 'fed up'. Tell your DH that and put it to him that it might be better to have a distant relationship where DD can be more neutral about them, rather than a suffocating one which DD will soon want to run screaming from.

i know that it may come across harshly and be hard to comprehend, but you simply can not underestimate how slow drip manipulation/comments and emotional blackmail can destroy very young children

Actually I can, hissy - my mother did this to me. I've had a lot of counselling for it and have come to realise that, in her case, a lot of it was blindly done. She was just acting out a lot of the time, and only realised what a bitch she'd been when it was too late for us to have a good relationship. She's dead now, but I can bring myself to feel sorry for her. It'd probably be different if she were still here TBH.

Back to the topic at hand: I agree that there is very little basis for doubt in this case.

plumping was she directly horrid to you, or do you mean about your GP.

My mum was an utter bitch to me when I was younger, beyond. I was desperate to please her but I never seemed to be able to get it right. I knew that if she was sad then it was my role to fix it and I felt (even up to recent years) very guilty if I couldn't fix it, even if it was something that would be impossible for me to fix. I was constantly told that I was fat, ugly, disgusting, an embarrassment, then cooed over and praised to the skies when other people were in the room. She got jealous if I liked other mums and I had to pretend I disliked them or else make up nasty things to say about them so she wouldn't get jealous. She also got jealous if I said I liked my aunt (her sister). My grandparents on her side used to ask me (only half-jokingly) if my mum was 'behaving'.

This is all beside the point of the thread - sorry. Just meant to say that I get how influential this stuff can be. The good part is, OP is the mother in this case and appears to be on the ball and very ready to defend her little girl. That's a huge first step. The DD will learn from her mum's example how to smile nicely and not let twats drag you down even when you can't escape them - a very important life lesson and one some people never learn.

I would seriously be thinking my relationship with him and would tell him that, time for subtlety is well and truly over

They may well have spent years behind your back to him worried that you don't like them and will turn the DP/DH and any DC against them.

So you make ultimatums even with a DH you think you have on side - and suddenly it all you've always had it in for them along with can't tell me who my DC do and don't see - saw that happen with an acquaintance. Things are that were agreed bad suddenly down played. MIL there clearly loved it acting all innocence and conciliatory but obviously shit stirring like mad.

To OP DD - reassure her that her set of friends are fine and talk about how unhappy Aunty is but that she has options but seems to be happy to wallow - try explain some people enjoy finding fault and moaning - it's their version of happy. A good strategy that is changing the subject - or better yet coming and finding you. Then try like mad not to let such situations happen again.

"I would seriously be thinking my relationship with him and would tell him that, time for subtlety is well and truly over"

My goodness, the last thing I would be doing would be thinking of leaving my husband in this situation or telling him so. I used to have a friend who was a retired divorce lawyer. She told me during a rough time in our marriage that if you divorce, all the things your husband does as a parent that you disagree with but are currently able to moderate (e.g. "oh honey, want a break, how about I take over for a while so you can have some peace" (if DH is getting frustrated with DS and starting to yell and argue)) you will have no say in if you split up it will happen and you may not even know about it. That if your husband has joint custody you will be breaking the law and face jail time if you try and stop it.

If OP was to ever split up I bet dollars to donuts that that little girl would spend a lot of time with those women without anyone to witness what was going on. Her DH would probably be overwhelmed and turn to the very people who were falling over themselves to be sympathetic and say what he wants to hear.

I think I would be telling my husband how proud I was of him, how difficult it must be to stand up to his family. That he was a good father. That it made me love him more to see him doing this for his daughter.

OP we had various family troubles and moved to another continent, it solved a lot of problems. Any chance you can move further away?