To suspect SIL has said something awful to DD who is 6?

[Gooogle]

To give some background, I had a very long thread about my husband's family, in particular my mother in law, a few months ago. It was called Utterly Depressed about my MIL. Sorry I don't know how to post a link.

Briefly, huge back history of MIL (and to some extent, SIL), wanting to be Mum to my DD who is 6 yrs old.

I have limited all contact - no texts or calls. We have to visit them every couple of months if there is a family occasion. I keep it friendly and pretend. Try not to say much. When I do speak MIL ignores me in a lovely passive aggressive way. It's like a stupid act we all put on.

DH saw a counsellor. He now sees that his DM dislikes me. That's huge progress. I am much happier, as the balance has shifted and now MIL would not dare to overstep the mark with me. She may well still bitch about me (I am sure she does!). But I really don't care.

Now I'm worried about my SIL. She is in her 40's, desperate to meet someone and marry, have a DC. Career that didn't go well, still relies on her parents for financial support. As the years go by she gets more and more sad/bitter and naturally there is a little bit of resentment towards me as I have DH and DD.

We visited PIL at the weekend, SIL was there. SIL had also seen DD the previous week. SIL tells me while we were at PIL's house, that my DD had told her the previous week that she was lonely and often has no one to play with. Apparently DD said she felt sad all the time. In reality my DD has friends and cousins to play every other day and spends lots of lovely time with me too. DD talks to me when she has a problem, and she has never told me she is lonely.

On the way home from PIL this week end, DD had a huge, HUGE emotional outburst. She was crying and her world was ending. Everything seemed to be wrong, DD said she had a terrible and awful life, never had anyone to play with, had to help me with chores all the time (hardly! She has the chores of making her bed and tidying her toys once a week). Everything was awful, no one gives her any attention.

I have never heard DD speak like this before. Never seen her in such a state either.

While we were at PIL, my SIL had taken her upstairs to have a chat. She often does this and I dislike it because I worry about what she may be saying to her.

SIL is very emotionally immature and she would like to feel she is closer to my DD than I am.

I have concerns about what SIL said to my DD. DD's outburst on the way home may be completely unrelated to her secret chat with SIL but I am worried they are linked.

My thoughts are that SIL has somehow manipulated DD into thinking all the things that came spilling out when she was crying on the way home. Could that be it? Feel sick thinking about having to now manage my DD around another member of the family.

Yes. Stopping contact might be the best idea.

A 40-something woman taking a child off for "chats" on her own isn't "subtle". It's downright weird, especially if the child is behaving strangely afterwards. Imagine if it was a BIL instead!

I agree with the posters above who recommended treating this as a safeguarding issue and not engaging with the SIL.

MrsTP has given you some excellent advice please follow it. You sil and mil are grooming your dd (not sexually). You need to protect your child.

I agree with pp that you need to ask open ended questions to your dd about what sil said to her. It must be tough, especially when you know your daughter doesn't usually get upset about things like that.

I am also confused, your op makes out that dd is an only child, but she isn't?

If you can't get your DH on side properly I would be just as manipulative right back - sign your DD up for some activities on Saturdays and Sundays and stop taking her to these things.

Sports, drama, etc. Brilliant to get you out of these events.

I think SIL's behaviour is very weird - it does sound like she's trying to manipulate your DD. I would do your best to avoid them having these alone chats in future - she sounds toxic. Your DH needs a bit of a wake up call too.

PintofCider makes a great suggestion. If your DC have hobbies on weekends, even when you do visit it gives you a time that you need to leave.

I'd avoid them being alone together.

If you're put on the spot about it, just say matter of factly, that you want to avoid dd being upset as she has been in the past. Then refuse to engage any further. Dont whatever you do, get dragged into discussing any of it with sil. They'll paint you as the bad guy and it will validate them to see you upset. Just keep repeating. I'd rather not, but don't let them see you get emotional about it.

Have a similar issue with DD's nursery teacher - DD is am occasional thumb sucker. While not ideal at 4 it's something we're managing with the dentist etc. DD had a very uncharacteristic hysteria the other night after her teacher (without any discussion with us) told DD that she must not suck her thumb any more as "big girls don't".

I had a very calm discussion about what had happened to make her so upset and got bits and pieces out of her. I let her describe what had happened and then probed a bit with "what exactly did she say" and "does she say this to you a lot or only once?" I got a lot of detail that way. The following day when she was calm I told her that it was absolutely fine for her to suck her thumb if she needed to and that I would be speaking to the teacher about it.

DD is only 4 so will sometimes tell me that "so and so told me off" when what she means is "so-and-so said I couldn't do something" so have to be a bit careful about it, but I'd certainly be having a discussion (and limiting these cosy chats between your DD and SIL).

I'd actually feel reasonably positive about DD having the emotional outburst with you after the event - she trusted you enough to let rip while you were away from the rest of the in-laws and not to go all quiet and inside herself.

And I wouldn't engage any further either.

I would absolutely stop the little chats.
My half sister used to try some similar kind of crap with my DD and it needs stamping on. How dare people who cannot stand me/you try to curry favour with my/your child?
Bang out of order.

I would be very surprised if a child of 6 thought someone who was 40 was "cool". They are ancient to a 6 year old. Someone of 14 to 17 might be "cool" much older and you are on your way to the grave.

I would stop the chats, and see them less often and for shorter time.

Allow your DD to tell you how she feels, without interferring. So "I've got no friends" bite your lip and say "It is sad that you feel you have no friends?" And if you have to ask "What would make you feel less lonely?" (but only if you really can't resist).

But do try to minimise your DCs involvement with this toxic family.

I had manipulative inlaws - my mother became a master of making excuses and making sure I was elsewhere. I thought it was odd at the time that I'd be sent off to the cinema, left at home when they visitied etc - looking back she was protecting me from weird uncle and horrible granny.

I think my mother would have loved to go no contact but my dad wouldn't admit how awful his family was, so my mum became a subversive within the family.

The other advantage of weekend activities is she will find new friends and be able to judge her aunt against others.

It is also never to early to start learning about the world, I recommend "philosophy for kids" which has a great section on what is friendship and who really is your friend.

I also love the expression "some gifts come with too high a price". Kids should think about that one as well.

If someone gives you presents then makes you cry - they are not your friend. I suspect your SIL will be slagging you off as well, my grandmother often told me how terrible my mother was, it's really confusing and upsetting when you are young.

Get your DD into weekend activities and reduce contact with these people. You don't even have to tell your DH why, he probably won't notice.

I agree, there should be no need to chat in private unless something dodgy is going on. Any chats about make up etc don't need privacy.

I would stop the contact tbh, they will be using your daughter against you and have started the poisonous drip drip drip of manipulation.

In a few years time you won't be able to tell when it all started.

" I suspect your SIL will be slagging you off as well,"
for sure.
I would stamp on this right now OP

I would take dd out for cake and then have a chat with her about exactly why she feels lonely. I would approach it from a "let's see what we can do about it" perspective so dd felt I was taking it seriously.

I would also talk to her about why she felt she had too many chores to do and what she would consider a fair amount to be. My ds complain about this too but I point out that the alternative is for me to do everything and I work longer hours than they do so that's not really fair either. I don't tend to get many complaints about this any more.

If after a discussion I felt that SIL had in any way helped dd to feel lonely or overworked, I would ensure that dd did not go off to chat with SIL alone. Depending on dd's level of maturity I might also explain to her that SIL was thinking about things that made her unhappy as a child and there was no reason why dd should feel the same.

Weekend activities would deal with both aspects at once: more chances to make friends, and oh dear, less time with SIL. What a shame, but DD's need for friends has to come first, SIL, wouldn't you agree...?

I agree - now that she has had this outburst, going out for cake and a chance for her to tell you properly all about it, and for you to listen to her, would probably neutralise the SIL's interference.

Then what MrsTerryPratchet says.

There are probably plenty of fairy stories, where people are offered treasures, in return for something they do not want to give by bad people - might be worth reading something and talking about the concept in general terms.

I remember your earlier thread op, you were in a horrible position.

You say you don't want to be seen to be stopping your dc's relationship with her "cool" auntie, but you know she's far from cool, and actually potentially very damaging to your child. I too should imagine your mil and sil are saying very negative things about you to your dc. Even without your daughter's last outburst, I think it's time to have a very honest conversation with her.

Don't worry about whether what you say might upset your dh, mil or sil. Your daughter is too young and vulnerable, as you know, to understand that she is being manipulated. I have had to explain to my own daughter, in a family related issue, that some people are just not very nice, that you cannot trust everyone to act correctly etc. It's horrible to burst the bubble but the alternative is worse.

You say it's hard to control your daughter being taken out of sight in family gatherings, I think you'll just have to make it your priority, if you can't avoid going altogether. Your dh will have to watch your other children, you don't have to justify your actions to anyone.

I agree you shouldn't discuss this with the sil - she'd love to think she's driven a wedge between you and your daughter. Just take all her power away by denying her access to your daughter. If you feel she's still saying things to her on the sly, you tell your dh and stop all contact. You can't wait for him to support you, it's taken a decade for him to admit to his mother's behaviour. If he does object, remind him it's not about you, an adult and your feelings, but about your child's well-being, which is non-negotiable.

You sound like you've really made progress since your last thread, I'm sure you'll find a way through this.

(p.s would I be right in thinking that mil and sil are a bit like the vile aunties in James and the Giant Peach ??!! Perhaps you could envisge them like that when/if you have to see them again - might help your blood-pressure !

What MrsT said. Spot on.

'We visited and SIL was there... she had also seen DD the previous week'.

OK, so something you can do to start off is make sure that it is a long, long, loooooong time before you see SIL again. You do have the power here - ultimately, to go no contact, even if your DH disagrees - but, if you know that will cause issues, you can control this situation quite a lot from the subversive position, as someone else described it.

So - no visit for a long time. The next time there's a plan which will involve SIL, tell your DH matter-of-factly that you aren't taking DD, he can go alone this time - either you have plans, or you can be a bit more upfront and say something like 'I'd like a bit more time to elapse before DD sees SIL again, she was very upset last time at SIL stirring with her so I'm not willing for that to continue - best we try and put a bit of distance there - it's better than me having to say to SIL that I don't want her speaking to DD alone again'. Let him know that you'd be willing to do this - make him aware that you are NOT going to stand by.

Trips out that coincide with SIL visits, taking one of DD's friends along when a visit is planned - what fun! Company for DD! - meeting out of the house, making excuses so meetings become every 3, 4 months not two - and even - though as you say it's hard - sticking to DD like glue and making sure you come along if they leave the room -'Where are you going DD? This sounds like fun! I'll come too!'

And do speak to your DD, in an age appropriate way, about how it's hard sometimes to tell good friendships from not so good friendships - that people making you feel bad isn't good friendship, and sometimes people who make other people feel sad with what they say do that because they're maybe not happy themselves, so they say silly things. And that she can always talk to you about it in confidence.

This is why I went NC with inlaws - very similar situation - in this case it was my husband's brother and wife - MiL sort of facilitated but wasn't overtly or obviously involved, too clever for that! They targeted my first child and I put my foot down immediately - they then created a massive family feud, I said if you feel like that best you don't see us again and happily they agreed. H never forgave me and over the years they'd decided they do want to see both my children now and so create all sorts of problems around this apparently longed for contact. H sees them occasionally, they don't change, neither does he - still blames me. I couldn't care less; they are all dysfunctional and I know I have to protect my children from them.

Sadly I think once the DCs get to 18+ they will try to contact them - I have warned my kids but its rare that people can understand how truly manipulative families like this are; I do worry.

Wish it was as easy as going NC.

Have similar with MIL and my eldest.

I stop the little chats - by finding the immediately but MIL then got cunning - they invite them selves along on days out and then while in queue MIL would suddenly grab eldest and run off to do something else leaving rest of us standing.

Though to be fair MIL had learnt not to slag me off to the DC - won't have it and she knows that - she learnt when the DC were much younger.

MIL still has a negative effect on eldest behaviour. There, till this last year, used to be more tantrums during and after visits. DH agrees about effect but would never do anything.

Since about aged 8 though impacted on eldest has been less and less.

MIL also wanted to be seen as cool - which I've always challenged as she anti learning - which was not going to be promoted to our DC - so pointed out the vast quantity of daft stuff she says and does which 2 second thinking would stop and that she old - which MIL like to pretend she not.

I would suggest mentioning how unhappy SIL is - with how her life has gone and choices she has made in a general way - just to modify the cool impression of aunt.

MIL isn't evil just insecure and very jealous - wanted to be mother role to eldest not GM though over years has adjusted.

It is hard as 20 fucking years of game playing - 10 pre DC year then post - I never wanted to have to deal with.

Worse is other DC treated different - one ignored a lot so have to have different strategies for them.

Best advice as few visits as possible - curb as many chances to sneak off as possible- I've found clubs at weekends which help us as well.

And do speak to your DD, in an age appropriate way, about how it's hard sometimes to tell good friendships from not so good friendships - that people making you feel bad isn't good friendship, and sometimes people who make other people feel sad with what they say do that because they're maybe not happy themselves, so they say silly things. And that she can always talk to you about it in confidence.

Really good advice

Penguin it really IS that simple if someone is grabbing YOUR child for the express reason to TRASH YOU to them.

You go and get your DD, you put DD out of earshot and you absolutely go BATSHIT at the MIL and TELL her that you will NOT have your child hijacked by ANYONE, much less someone who is intent on destroying the relationship you with DD.

She is either ONSIDE or OUTSIDE.

I would never EVER allow anyone showing favouritism/bias or this manipulative behaviour NEAR my DC.

And yes, I am NC with my own mother, and quite frankly CBA with my father either, though for slightly different reasons.

Why should you clutter up your weekend JUST because someone won't respect you or your child.

No, we won't be going is a FAR more effective way of dealing with it and full and frank explanation as to why.

You would not accept this behaviour from strangers, who owe you nothing, so why accept it from people who should put you on a higher level of care/responsibility etc?

I agree fully too with SylvaniansAtEase appropriate chat. tell the truth, but in a way the child can process it