AIBU to think that my Dad is out of line and should back off on this?

[Marmiteandjamislush]

As background: It is Lent and we are very observant.

My Dad is here, as he is every day teaching the boys. I was setting the table for lunch and I put out a jug of water. DS2 (just 4) starts whinging that he doesn't want water, he wants juice. Now, to me he is just being a pain because we don't have juice with meals as a matter of course anyway, he has been very willful over the last few days anyway, because this is the first Lent that we have made him do 'properly' in that we have said no to anything sweet, fried or leaven at all and no red meat. I don't think this is a problem, his brother is just 6 and has done it from the same age. Anyway, so I serve the meal, veg broth and Matza. DS2 is still whining and refusing to eat, saying, 'I'm too thirsty, I'm too thirsty, Meenor!' His name for my Dad.

Dad then says to me 'How can you see your child suffer like this? I never denied you a drink as a child.'

I answered that I am not denying him anything, he is choosing not to drink the water and is only playing up to an audience.

A little later, [DS2still whining] I nip out to the loo, and come back to find DS2 has got a glass of squash!

AIBU to think that my Dad should have stuck to my rules in my own house?

FYI, kitchen has been cleaned for Lent, so he had to purposefully walk through to my office the garage to get the juice from the child inaccessible cupboard!

There has been studies into the effect of sugar on our bodies and the fact we crave it and I think to suddenly deny your 4 year old because of a religious occasion is completely unreasonable.

However your dad should not have undermined you.

I think you are forcing your children to give up way too much. I thought it was about giving up one thing that you love?

passover isn't until April though

You are completely out of order making a four year old child observe Lenten abstinence. It is bordering on child abuse. IMHO.

'a pain'
'wilful'
'whining'
'we have made him do...'

Jesus Christ. What 4-year old wouldn't be relishing vegetable broth and matzo...

Usually I'd say the parent's rules shouldn't be undermined, but in this case I believe they should.

erm i dont really see the big deal tbh

I remember giving up bread as an experiment once, worst week of my life!

I am staggered by how judgemental and potential hurtful people are being about the OP's religious beliefs. (Though it's nothing to me; I have none.) It's fucking ludicrous to call it "child abuse". We all impose things on our children they might rather do without; mine certainly think I'm unreasonable when it comes to bedtimes, seatbelts and KFC. Where are the no sugar, no processed, "made from scratch" bores when you need them?

What do you do about the wilfulness, OP?

No drinks except water with meals in general sounds fine although I doubt weak squash would result in massive health problems.

However I would find your observance of lent too much for kids
.

I am Catholic and have never heard of all this.

4 years old and being expected to understand and observe Lent.

YABVVVVVU and it is exactly this bonkers piety that sent me round the twist and made me run kicking and screaming from Catholicism the moment I could.

I cannot for the life of me get my head round anyone trying to impose religion on another individual. It is mad and wrong.

Your Dad might have been trying to gently hint at this, OP.

Sorry not to have been back for a good while, work called. In answer to some of the FAQs:

We are Torah Observant Christians, so a lot stricter than most. We give up all luxurious foods for the 40 days and nights of Lent in the traditional sense of fasting. We will also continue to give up leavens for Passover, but the the children will be able to eat Passover permitted cakes and sweets ect. during that time. We also keep Kosher all of the time.

My family are not as strict as me and DH, for example they have tvs and allow print Media, we do not. We read Reuters online for news and use catch up services for other things. The children watch DVDs. However, after conformation at around 14 (or not if they choose not to follow the faith) they will be allowed internet access with standard filters, we use these now anyway) They have supervised internet access for school work.

Re children and religious views, I fully believe that children must have a choice whether to continue observance in to adulthood. My boys stay with other family members who are less observant and can ascertain their views and way of living. DS1 also attends secular sport and hobby club and DS 2 goes to a secular playgroup, but I of course provide his food and drink there. However, I do think that whilst they are young, we as their parents have their best interests at heart and that living as we do serves these interests, which is the reason that we as adults have continued living as we do.

I also think it does children no harm to learn restraint, and I believe that all parents teach this in someway, be it sweets only on Saturdays or taking turns with toys, so I don't think that giving up luxurious food for a period of time is harmful. DH and I do it too, so we are not asking the children to do anything we are not.

I was angry at my Dad because he overrode my choice in my house and whatever his motivation this was disrespectful to me. So I'm glad the majority think IWNU on that score.

Make sure you're not making your children's religious experience be all about not being able to do things, or about doing things they don't like. That's a good way to drive them away from religious observance when they are older. If you are drawn to asceticism in religion, fine, follow whatever rules you want. But if you want your children to follow your religion in adulthood, their experience with it should be mostly positive. Asceticism is not going to be a positive experience for a four year old. People who have negative experiences with their religion when they are young tend to become non-religious as adults, or to find a different religion. The social pressures against doing those things are not what they were in our parents' generation.

What denomination do you belong to? I've never heard of giving up leavened products for Lent. I'm Jewish (though grew up Christian), we give them up for Passover, but that's only 8 days, not 40. I and most other Jews I know are heartily sick of matza by the end of Passover. I can't imagine eating it instead of bread for 40 days.

I'm trying hard to make Judaism a positive experience for my kids. I read somewhere that someone who left Judaism described her experience with it as "an old man saying no". I'm trying not to make it like that for my kids.

Can I ask, why did you give all the Lenten observance? "I said no to squash and my dad overruled me- AIBU to be cross?" You would have had universal support from all Mumsnetters.

YABVVU!

We are a Christian family and observe Lent.

I wouldn't dream of expecting my children (6 and 4) to fast though!!! I think it is fine for children to be exposed to religion, but religious observance (especially fasting) shouldn't be expected, it should be a choice!

I'm all for healthy eating but serving growing children vegetable broth and a matzo is really not enough!

YANBU about the juice though, no need for that, although I can understand if your dad got annoyed for your children's sake!

Exactly what Hakluyt said

All the lent stuff is totally unnecessary and has nothing to do with your Dad overriding your rules.

We only have water with meals and I would be furious if my father overrules me like that.

However, if Dad is "in charge" at my request, babysitting or teaching the children, then I have to accept that it's his rules or get someone else to do it.

The Lent thing is just way to far out of most people's understanding to be discussed rationally. I don't for a minute think it's harmful, difficult for the parents mostly, I imagine.

The Child doesn't HAVE juice at mealtimes as aMatter of course!

The squash is utterly irrelevant.

df has no right to undermine the mother here.

As for non religious types imposing non religion on their children? how idiotic can any one person be?

Deluded. Utterly deluded.

I don't see any problem with your approach to Lent, although if your child is at the younger end of 4 it must be a bit mystifying, but as somebody upthread said, a 4 year old eats what she is told, and what you describe for Lent doesn't strike me as particularly unreasonable. It's different to what we might normally eat, but then so is what people eat in Norway, or Morocco, or vegans or whatever, so I don't really get all the hate on this thread.

YANBU to be upset that your Dad so deliberately undermined you. He went to an effort to disregard your instructions, and as you don't normally have juice at lunch, it had nothing to do with Lent and his opinions about it.

Does your 4 year old have to observe the whole fast as the adults do? Is that what your Dad is upset about?

Also, if you didn't bring up your children in your own faith, I fail to understand how any faith would survive more than a couple of generations? Should we perhaps not bring our children up in our own nationalities either and let them choose them when they are old enough too?

If you don't believe in your own faith sufficiently to believe that your children should be raise in it, then you don't have a faith at all.

If you don't believe in your own faith sufficiently to believe that your children should be raise in it, then you don't have a faith at all.

Exactly.

Dad does HE them, yes. I suppose I included the background because it is what is happening at the moment, and you always get at least 1 poster who says I need more info. I am happy to read all opinions as the views of others are always interesting to me. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

What would Jesus do?

Give him the squash and stop shoving extreme religious views on to young kids. Jesus was a teacher, not a punisher.

so there are Christians who only eat Kosher?
Every day's a schoolday.
I think YABU but only because my belief that any one who is religious is batty so feel free to ignore me!
Also, 4 yo is still a toddler really. He won't have a clue about the religious significance of it all and will just feel resentment. Do you really have to be so hardline with him?

If you have your Dad coming every day to HE them, then I think you probably have to allow him more say over their upbringing than would otherwise be considered normal. You can't expect him to be that involved and then not involved IYSWIM.

This clearly wasn't about the squash at lunch though, if there normally isn't any anyway.

I simply don't understand the don't impose religious views on your children line of argument, and I'm an atheist.

OP thinks the way she lives is what is right, and good, and ordained by God. Why on earth would she exclude her own children from that? And how would that work in practice within the family-"I keep Kosher but you don't have to?" Give the 4 year old his own non-Kosher kitchen and tell him to get on with it?