AIBU to think that my Dad is out of line and should back off on this?

[Marmiteandjamislush]

As background: It is Lent and we are very observant.

My Dad is here, as he is every day teaching the boys. I was setting the table for lunch and I put out a jug of water. DS2 (just 4) starts whinging that he doesn't want water, he wants juice. Now, to me he is just being a pain because we don't have juice with meals as a matter of course anyway, he has been very willful over the last few days anyway, because this is the first Lent that we have made him do 'properly' in that we have said no to anything sweet, fried or leaven at all and no red meat. I don't think this is a problem, his brother is just 6 and has done it from the same age. Anyway, so I serve the meal, veg broth and Matza. DS2 is still whining and refusing to eat, saying, 'I'm too thirsty, I'm too thirsty, Meenor!' His name for my Dad.

Dad then says to me 'How can you see your child suffer like this? I never denied you a drink as a child.'

I answered that I am not denying him anything, he is choosing not to drink the water and is only playing up to an audience.

A little later, [DS2still whining] I nip out to the loo, and come back to find DS2 has got a glass of squash!

AIBU to think that my Dad should have stuck to my rules in my own house?

FYI, kitchen has been cleaned for Lent, so he had to purposefully walk through to my office the garage to get the juice from the child inaccessible cupboard!

I'm not jewish but I buy matzo crackers.

Jews don't acknowledge Jesus so don't observe lent. I suspect the OP is Catholic (so should probably be keeping an eye on the priest around her young boys rather than getting picky about squash).

Lent is irrelevant to this though.

The OP only ever serves water with meals - nothing to do with lent. Dad was being unreasonable for going against the normal rules of the house, but probably not something I would make a big deal over.

Your dad shouldn't have gone behind your back, but you're being pretty unreasonable in your expectations of your children, and I think having invited your father into your house to teach the children (about religion?) you have some obligation to listen to him.

As for imposing religion on children ... It's ridiculous to talk about non-believers "imposing" non-belief on children, unless the parents are especially militant. Many religious believers impose church attendance or respect of rituals on their children, even against the child´s express wishes, but IME few atheists would refuse to let their children attend a church service if the child asked. My DD even went to confirmation classes, at her own instigation (we're not religious at all).

What does 'leaven' mean? Do you mean bread or things with yeast in them?

Leaven = with yeast/raising agents in them.

So what if the op only serves water with meals. That was before she banned all sweet stuff. Maybe he is craving something sweet now. Really unfair to force it on a child who doesn't even understand what it's really about.

Oh Gawd, NickiFury - you made me realise why the hackles on my neck stood up.....

'wilful'......

As a matter of course, OP, you provide water, not juice for meals. But is your 4-yr old normally permitted to drink juice at other times of the day (outside of the Lent period)? I presume the answer is Yes, so your little boy would not normally have made a fuss about lack of juice at a meal. But at the moment, he is not being allowed it at all, so is probably utterly bewildered.

Whilst I can respect your wish to observe religious restrictions, your list does appear to be fairly large, for a very young child.

Even down to nothing unleavened - this cuts out a very large amount of bakery products, including something as simple as a pancake.
Nothing fried or sweet and no red meat.
That is an absolutely HUGE ask for a small child.

If you had said your Dad had overridden your wish to serve a juice drink at dinner when none of the other restrictions are in place, I could completely understand your frustration and would have agreed with you. But, you have cut out a huge portion of your child's diet, and your Dad is more than likely feeling sorry for the little lad.

Cut out one small thing for him, if you feel you absolutely have to. Not half his diet.

Why is not eating certain things for a few weeks so much worse for a child than insisting they follow a vegan diet? No sweet things, fried or red meat is hardly the end of the world. We eat very little fried food or red meat so if I did this the only bit the kids would notice would be sweet things. If I said we as a family were trying to give up sugar I doubt people would be so judging. Four might be young to understand why they are following lent but it is a way of life and why not introduce it now? Children have to do a lot of things that they can't possibly fully understand.

I agree with lottie. If the OP had posted 'we don't normally have juice with meals, only water, but my dad went behind my back and gave my DS juice' there would become very different responses on here.

Ok, taking lent out of the situation (for those of you who are repeatedly saying this isn't anything to do with lent)...

OP has suddenly stopped giving her 4 year old a large variety of foods, including sweet foods which 4 year olds like a lot. The reasons are beyond the understanding of a 4 year old, who is used to a certain level of consistency. 4 year old's behaviour became difficult to manage shortly after. Grandfather of 4 year old disagrees with the sudden and strict change in rules for his grandchild and gives him some squash.

The grandparent sounds much more reasonable here.

And I find people telling the OP to just cut out one thing from her child's diet, and suggesting what to cut, etc, very patronising and bossy.

It's not impossible that the sudden change in diet has led to the 4year old ending up hungry and tetchy - which might explain the sudden willfulness :-/

he is also not allowed leavened products so no bread, cakes, etc either. I wouldn't impose a vegan diet on a child either tbh

OnlyLovers it's not only the water/squash issue. It's ALL sweet stuff and maybe the child is craving something.

Your Dad should have supported you, then sat you down for a chat later.

Op is not Jewish. Shes orthodox Christian i think. I may have got this wrong, I know nothing about religions.
I'm not going to judge you Op. I've noticed you around, and regardless of your quiet strict religious views you seem non judgemental and nice.
I think your dad should not have given ds squash but it must to hard for him to give up all that he has for lent.
Maybe you could give them the choice of what to give up for lent?

And suddenly, out of the blue, restricting your child's diet when he is too young to understand the reasons is not patronising and bossy?

Most adults, who observe Lent, only give up one thing for that period - Voluntarily, knowing what they do. Not half of what they would normally eat - imposed with no understanding whatsoever.

I agree with other that YANBU re your dad going against your wishes and undermining you, however, i think YABU with regards to making a 4yo observe lent

My DH observes lent and has given up sweet stuff and he is struggling. He has made a conscious choice to do this and fully understands why so i imagine it would be even harder for a four year old who has it forced upon him, especially if he used to eating these things.

Of course lent is part of the issue. The four year old is suddenly without many of the foods and drinks he enjoys, and the timing roughly coincides over the last week. That is a very long list of stuff he has been banned from having with no good reason that he can understand. I would bet good money on that being why you are finding him "wilful" over the last few days. Yes, he was throwing something of a tantrum, but so would I if I had to forego that list for any length of time. It is too much for him.

If he had been able to have his squash at other times then he very possibly would not have demanded it at mealtime anyway.

It is no good saying that your 6 year old was able to follow these unnecessary rules at the age of 4 so therefore his brother should have no problem either. All children are different. What worked for one will not necessarily work for others. There is simply no "one size fits all" for anything.

I'll just finish by saying I am agnostic really. I have no particular religious persuasion, and personally I don't observe lent.

I agree with OnlyLovers. First mistake the OP made was any reference to Lent or religion whatsoever.

OP - yanbu about your actual complaint. Since you seem to rely on your Dad for some form of education for your children you may have to reach a compromise with him.

Personal perspective - veg broth and matza [thin cracker bread aren't they?] for lunch alone would leave my 4 yr old like a cranky hungry witch. I'm not surprised he's being a bit "wilful". He's probably pretty hungry and bored of it by now.

Are you observing Passover for 7-8 days rather than 40 Lent days though?

This is a tough one. Your house, your rules of course but it is a lot to give up for a 4 year old.

What is your dad teaching your children?

If he's eating vegetable broth and crackers for lunch he's probably starving and his body is craving easy calories. Like squash.

Catholics are expected to observe Lent from 14yrs of age btw. Before that, they are "encouraged" to give something up as an act of penance and would typically participate where their parents don't eat meat on a Friday for example. It would be unusual for parents to make something different for a child.

Biscuits, cake, sweets etc were banned in my house for Lent though - we couldn't access them as our parents didn't buy them/removed them. I can't say that its left any of my siblings with particularly strong religious beliefs but nor would I say that it's the sole reason for it so some of the posts above are OTT I think.