AIBU to think that my Dad is out of line and should back off on this?

[Marmiteandjamislush]

As background: It is Lent and we are very observant.

My Dad is here, as he is every day teaching the boys. I was setting the table for lunch and I put out a jug of water. DS2 (just 4) starts whinging that he doesn't want water, he wants juice. Now, to me he is just being a pain because we don't have juice with meals as a matter of course anyway, he has been very willful over the last few days anyway, because this is the first Lent that we have made him do 'properly' in that we have said no to anything sweet, fried or leaven at all and no red meat. I don't think this is a problem, his brother is just 6 and has done it from the same age. Anyway, so I serve the meal, veg broth and Matza. DS2 is still whining and refusing to eat, saying, 'I'm too thirsty, I'm too thirsty, Meenor!' His name for my Dad.

Dad then says to me 'How can you see your child suffer like this? I never denied you a drink as a child.'

I answered that I am not denying him anything, he is choosing not to drink the water and is only playing up to an audience.

A little later, [DS2still whining] I nip out to the loo, and come back to find DS2 has got a glass of squash!

AIBU to think that my Dad should have stuck to my rules in my own house?

FYI, kitchen has been cleaned for Lent, so he had to purposefully walk through to my office the garage to get the juice from the child inaccessible cupboard!

Equally, if a veggie or vegan came here saying their child had demanded a sausage roll (Greggs of course) and had been given one, most people would agree that was outrageous. They wouldn't say "don't impose your weirdy animal rights beliefs on your child." or "A child should be allowed sausage rolls and will grow up to hate you and eat animals just to spite you"

I would. Bloody vegetarians.

I think giving up for Lent is a red herring here. The issue is someone else taking it upon themselves to override a parents decisions regarding what their child can have. My mother tries to do this all the time and it drives me up the bloody wall. My DS doesn't have squash and every time she comes to visit she brings a bottle of vimto and spends the whole stay trying to get him to drink it whenever my back is turned.

Marmite I think you've been really gracious on this thread.

FWIW I think your dad was wrong to give your DC squash when you don't give it with meals. However as he HEs your children, I expect he feels he has more of an input than he might otherwise have. I think the best thing to do is to talk to your dad about it. Interestingly, your DC knew to ask grandad for it, probably realising he's a softer touch (as are most grandparents!). My MIL used to give chocolate mousse to DD for breakfast without me knowing!!

I agree that lots of parents bring their children up as vegan or veggie or following other religious diets full time, so I don't think Lent is a particular issue. Your 4yo might not understand why he could have something last week that he can't have now though, which might be contributing to his behaviour. Tricky to deal with that if your dad isn't fully on board with your Lent observance though. Is there an impact on HE due to their change in diet and that's why your dad went over you?

"I have never seen a thread where a Muslim parent is told that their children will grow up to hate their religion because they have enforced it too much at home"

But I've never seen a thread where a Muslim poster has come on to talk about the strict restrictions they put on their children at all. If you know of one, please share a link. If you've never seen such a thread either then it's not exactly surprising that you also haven't seen it with a particular set of 're as ponses, is it? I have seen threads where the poster's husband has become a much more extreme/religious Muslim and is seeking to impose that on the rest of the family, however, and in those cases MNers have made exactly those sorts of points.

I'm vegetarian. 4 year old DD is an omnivore. She understands that "mummy doesn't eat meat" in the same way that she understands that greatgranny says "God bless".

DD is free to choose her own beliefs. She can't do that if she's not exposed to lots of/all of the options. IMO.

For me this is still just about the GF directly undermining the parent. You can argue he should get a vote in this particular situation because he is so enmeshed in their day to day life, but he should exercise that vote in private, not by overruling her as soon as she leaves the room. I'd say the same about a DH - if I've said no, he backs me up no matter his feelings on that particular squash opportunity, and I do the same with him.

I'm not sure how it helps to compare ages at which muslim children fast. Having various meat, veg, matza, liquid available is in no way similar to having nothing pass your lips. I think for Ramadan children do mini-fasts. The GF giving the child squash is a bit like giving food to a child during their mini-fast; it's not as bad as giving meat to a veggie but it's not as simple as 'it's only squash, who cares?' either. The difference perhaps is that the (very few) muslims I've discussed fasting with always say what a joyful thing it is, and how it was an exciting, positive thing when they were old enough to join in.

Possibly your father was just in a cankertous mood OP, maybe he fancied some bread with his soup or something and this was his way of acting out.

Is anyone else finding it hard to reconcile a poster who doesn't watch tv or look at print media, only watches documentaries on catch-up, but posts on MN? In AIBU?!!!! How on earth do you square that circle marmite?

Erm I don't find it too rigid but then I've always served water with my kids meals, because I thought that was normal, that is what I had as a kid. Juice would not go down well with spicy food, really need water.

I find it odd that some posters are suggesting you are being too harsh. being a good parent means sticking to your guns, not giving in to every whim a child wants. Now this child was not starved or left to die. The child had a choice of foods and water as a drink. If you want to feel sorry for someone look to those kids in Africa who have no clean water to drink let alone food. It's absurd to say she's too harsh.

I don't know much about lent but I would guess it's a short period and only once a year? Someone enlighten me please.

I think your dad was unreasonable, it was a nasty comment, implying you're leaving your kid to dehydrate. Clearly you and your father have different religious views and he does not agree with your method. personally I wouldn't take it to heart too much, my dad says a lot of nasty things you just have to grow a thicker skin.

Btw I agree with everything poster tywysogesgymraeg said. I was suppose to fast for month from the age of puberty and I never managed the full month just a few days.luckily my parents weren't fiercely observant so they were more gentle in how they taught us. The year I first started in the 80s the fast was in the summer and it was so damn long I'd vommit just before it was time to break the fast. Now if you told a 4 year old to do that I'd say it was cruel but water and no juice is not cruel at all. No red meat for a short time is not cruel either. In my house we have red meat once a month, health choice and Scottish lamb is so expensive, no mutton here as in England. lamb is double the cost of mutton. anyways my kids aren't in want for anything they actually love the red meat when they have it as a treat rather than every day, I hope I'm not deemed to be a harsh parent and I also have a 4 year old, so I know how they can make demands.

OP, you sound like a wonderful person. Graciousness in response to some pretty awful insults is not something I have managed to master and I'm impressed that you have. And thank you for answering everyone's questions so clearly - I'm grateful for the chance to learn a bit about a section of Christianity that I had never heard of before.

"Is anyone else finding it hard to reconcile a poster who doesn't watch tv or look at print media, only watches documentaries on catch-up, but posts on MN? In AIBU?!!!! How on earth do you square that circle marmite?"

She explained that. Mumsnet is considered an extension of normal day to day human interaction. Like an online school gate, I suppose. And is therefore OK.

Agree with Purple

However as he HEs your children, I expect he feels he has more of an input than he might otherwise have.

If a teacher were to go against a parent's wishes, there would be hell to pay, I for one would NOT be happy with the GF here undermining a DIRECTLY conveyed and clear choice I made about something that is a normal and everyday table decision.

The DF here clearly doesn't support his daughter's religious decisions, nor her parenting.

I'd find another person to HE quite frankly. I would not tolerate my decisions being countermanded in my own home

FWIW, I don't even believe in religion and feel that it does WAY more harm than good in this world, but on this thread religion is utterly irrelevant, this is a clear case of DF not respecting his DD and undermining her.

If he has issues with her decisions, the ONLY way to tackle them is out of the earshot of the kids, but even then, he has to accept that he doesn't get to call the shots wrt her parenting decisions.

What about not circumcising? Seems at odds with strict Torah (of Vayikra) observance that doesn't allow TV . I still don't understand the mergence of jewish and christian traditions (not eating unleavened bread during Lent?) But personally I don't understand the whole JFJ shtick anyway, I think accepting Jesus/Yeshua as the messiah is at odds with the TOrah. Do you believe in Trinitarianism??

Sorry, just read that back and it seems very confrontational in tone. I didn't mean to attack you, I'm just very interested in how these are all explained and I wrote it very quickly without engaging my diplomacy filter. Sorry. I would like to know though, if you felt able to share.

OP, you sound like a wonderful person. Graciousness in response to some pretty awful insults is not something I have managed to master and I'm impressed that you have. And thank you for answering everyone's questions so clearly - I'm grateful for the chance to learn a bit about a section of Christianity that I had never heard of before.

Well said.

Why is this turning into a Muslim issue. I'm sorry but through my eyes I interpret this as "more garbage to spew about them alien terrorist Muslims" I hear it on the news I switch off. maybe you never hear of Muslims finding some of their practices as strict because it is made a part of their culture and lifestyle from the day they are born at least this is how it was with Me. I never saw fasting as imposed on me, I knew it was a tenet that all Muslims did it was the norm. But I did know it was not normal to miss fasts, I did know some parents were more strict and mine were lenient. They weren't bothered if I missed fasts as a 13 year old without good reason. They never encouraged me or instructed me to wear the hijab as is the the norm for Muslim girls. But why would they if theirs parents didn't teach them the same?

The reason ppl see some Muslims as strict is no other than we are "different". All these false ideas that strict fathers bully their wives and children to conform to a set of rules and rituals is bull. From my experience and of those families around me the fathers value their culture more over their religion . So if they have chauvinistic , strict attitudes it stems from their indopak or middle eastern culture rather than faith. Non Muslims cannot see this or refuse to separate the two. Regardless lets just say in polite terms it ticks me off the gross misrepresentation of me and my faith everywhere in the media. I don't watch news on tv at all haven't since 9/11. I don't want to have hatred towards non Muslims for all the lies they print about my faith so I choose to not listen, yes ignorance is bliss for me. Or at least it was until I came upon this thread, believe it or not we just want a peaceful life like most people. But no one believes that everyone thinks we are bloodthirsty barbaric cavemen.

So equally this cave woman doesn't find this idea of lent strict either. If the child does not want to do it as they get older they will not, you can't force an adult to do anything if their heart is not in it.

I think i'll research lent now see how tyrannical it really is any more than the daily exams placed on primary school kids, I wonder ?

OP, I too think you have been very gracious in your replies to questions about your faith and day to day life choices.

I had not heard of Torah Christianity, so I just did a straight forward google search and found a site that may not be a true representation of where your faith lies.

However I was rather alarmed by its homophobic and islamophobic stance.

How would you feel if your DS's were gay?

OP - I have no problem with your method of upbringing, but like Tremolo I find it strange, as a brit is a clear biblical obligation. If you are not prepared to do that, then how does your covenant operate...?

bigbluestars "What if you are wrong and there is no god?" Well, these children have been made to give up sugar, red meat and fried foods for 40 days a year. I don't think it will do any lasting damage.

I'm being facetious, I know. But as regards this – "Is it not better to allow them their own path in life rather than you tinkering with the hardwiring of their brains like this?" – it is the OP's faith we are talking about; it is non-negotiable to her (I assume). And she is entitled in our society to believe what she chooses, bringing her own children up within the framework of those beliefs if she so desires.

For those who can't reconcile the OP avoiding mainstream media but engaging on Mumsnet, might I suggest agenda? Mumsnet, like Twitter, is made up of a huge number of people with wildly different views; as evidenced on this thread. I can see why it would be more useful as a resource in the OP's case, seeking practical advice, than politically funded and steered news sources. (Speaking as someone who works in the media.) But forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth, OP.

I'm with limegoldfinewine - I was brought up in a strict Christian denomination.

No drinking, no dancing, no smoking. Reading novels was frowned on, playing cards was 'gambling'. Tv was the work of the devil, my own grandmother BEGGED me to not cut my long hair and to not get my driver's licence (how would I wipe Jesus' feet with short hair, and my poor husband who at that point was completely imaginary as I was only 16 and had no boyfriend would be devastated at not being able to drive me around and having me rely on him like a good wife....).

I wasn't able to play sports on Sundays - so some sporting activities were always denied to me as they were often only done on Sundays.

Women had little place in the church. Women were to KNOW their place. If a woman divorced an abusive husband she wasn't permitted to remarry.

HUGE issues about menstruation - you couldn't have communion if you were menstruating, you were not permitted back to church after having a baby until you had stopped bleeding - so basically a woman was unclean if she was bleeding....

Make up was a huge sin, admittedly an ignored rule by most of the teenage girls though.

Skirts and dresses only in church, covering the knees and shoulders to be covered at all times. You were frowned on for trousers and jeans out of hours too, but my parents were more lax on this. Scarves over the head during the church service for women, although these were more wispy and hair easily visible.

Church twice on Sundays, and a few extra services during the week. Occasional periods of fasting.

It was never ending....

I rebelled so badly at 15, and went off the rails quite badly for a few years. Luckily I had a good instinct for self preservation and managed to not get into too much trouble.

Once I left home it took me 10 YEARS to start going back to church - even though in all that time I still felt I was a Christian. THAT's how scarred I was by it.

Any whiff of evangelical teaching and I'm out of any church I'm in.

Once I left home it took me 10 YEARS to start going back to church

Blimey, I am amazed you went back at all!

"Equally, if a veggie or vegan came here saying their child had demanded a sausage roll (Greggs of course) and had been given one, most people would agree that was outrageous. They wouldn't say "don't impose your weirdy animal rights beliefs on your child." or "A child should be allowed sausage rolls and will grow up to hate you and eat animals just to spite you"

The difference there is that most vegetarian children are raised with that diet, the child in the OP has had squash before, and has suddenly had all sweet food and beverages taken away. If the child had been raised sugar free I imagine there would be no tantrum for a drink - slightly unrelated, but when I was younger I hated water so much I'd do an entire day without drinking if my mother wouldn't allow me squash, I hope the child is drinking enough.

OP, for what it's worth I don't think you're abusive and as an atheist, though I don't agree with your beliefs I fully respect your right to have them, but I would be wary about making sure if you are taking so many things away from your children to explain fully, carefully and repeatedly so they at least understand why they cannot have those items.

In a slightly simplified way, when an adult starts a strict diet, the MAD sugar cravings you sometimes get a lessened slightly by the understanding of why you are dieting and why you need to cut down/remove sugar, a child probably wouldn't understand why they feel funny (sometimes angry, stroppy or upset) but know they want something.