AIBU to think that my Dad is out of line and should back off on this?

[Marmiteandjamislush]

As background: It is Lent and we are very observant.

My Dad is here, as he is every day teaching the boys. I was setting the table for lunch and I put out a jug of water. DS2 (just 4) starts whinging that he doesn't want water, he wants juice. Now, to me he is just being a pain because we don't have juice with meals as a matter of course anyway, he has been very willful over the last few days anyway, because this is the first Lent that we have made him do 'properly' in that we have said no to anything sweet, fried or leaven at all and no red meat. I don't think this is a problem, his brother is just 6 and has done it from the same age. Anyway, so I serve the meal, veg broth and Matza. DS2 is still whining and refusing to eat, saying, 'I'm too thirsty, I'm too thirsty, Meenor!' His name for my Dad.

Dad then says to me 'How can you see your child suffer like this? I never denied you a drink as a child.'

I answered that I am not denying him anything, he is choosing not to drink the water and is only playing up to an audience.

A little later, [DS2still whining] I nip out to the loo, and come back to find DS2 has got a glass of squash!

AIBU to think that my Dad should have stuck to my rules in my own house?

FYI, kitchen has been cleaned for Lent, so he had to purposefully walk through to my office the garage to get the juice from the child inaccessible cupboard!

if this thread had said that the dad had given the child a glass of squash when the op had wanted him to have water, without the references to the religious bit I would have said:

It's squash. Grandparents do things which infuriate us, and we can probably all remember things we weren't allowed to do as children which our parents merrily allow our children to do. ime this stuff becomes less important as kids get older.

I'm not going to comment on your religion, I don't necessarily agree with it for multiple reasons, but whatever works for you.... but all I would say is

be careful that you don't get so caught up in doing what you think God would want that you lose track of the actual life you're living... it was just a glass of squash.

I hardly feel that's it fair for everyone to take out their reservations of 3000 years of Judao-Christian theology on the poor OP.

I don't think your are in any way abusive, soup is good for lunch. We never had anything but water with meals until recently. It's a good thing and your father should not have over ridden your house rule. He needs to back off and follow your lead.

WeeBirdie - garlic bread. Wouldn't that be a forbidden thing in this scenario? Bread = yeast = leavened?

yes, it would, but the OP isn't the only one reading the thread.

Oh, of course she's not being abusive, and of course her dad was wrong to over ride her decision.

But I have massive reservations about expecting a 4 year old to follow strict religious practices, whatever they are. And I have lived a long life and met many people, and I have never met a fundamentalist sect like this (and there are many of them) where there has not been a massive power inbalance between men and women, and where the physical chastisement of children- and sometimes of women- has not been sanctioned, even if not practised.

No, you're right - but I thought we were all tuned into and responding to the opening post.

My mistake

OP, I have to say that I'm a very staunch humanist and not the greatest fan of organised religion, but I don't think you sound abusive at all, and I think you're to be commended for graciously answering everyone's questions and not responding aggressively to some pretty nasty comments.

I would not choose to live as you do but your little snapshot of your life was fascinating, thanks for sharing.

Nearas, texts are open to interpretation. And regardless of what might possibly have been meant originally, what's the big problem with the OP interpreting it the way she does?

Squinkies - no-one is denying that soup is not good for lunch, nor that water is not good to drink. Some posters (including me) have queried why a four-yr old child has had food restrictions forced upon him in the name of religion, when he is too young to understand them.

Soup is great. Water is great. But so many sudden, unexpected edible restrictions placed upon a very young child for 40 days when he is normally allowed them, and when he doesn't understand the reasons why they have suddenly stopped, are questionable.

Of course it's not child abuse - that's taking an accusation much too far, but it is fair that people are wondering why the restrictions are necessary.

And it is good to discuss, as I for one had absolutely no idea that this branch of Christianity even existed.

Thank you for answering me OP. I do really fancy some of that soup now though!

I would worry that when they are older they rebel against lent as it was a time they hated as a child.

Maybe give up one thing, chocolate. Or as many do, take something up rather than give something up

But no your dad shouldn't have done this but you know how soft grandparents can be!

If the children are not usually allowed squash at mealtimes regardless of Lent, why have it in the house? It's isn't really on for your dad to undermine your parenting, but these issues could easily be avoided by not having food and drinks in that nobody's allowed to consume.

And I do think that a four year old is too young to understand that he can't have foods that he would eat as part of his routine because of your religious beliefs.

I do think the Lent background stuff is relevant, because your DS is four and normally gets squash (okay, not with meals, but you normally have it in the house so presumably it gets drunk) or juice and other sweet things and now he's had a week of going cold turkey on all of it. There's a good chance he's having some wicked sugar cravings without having the intellectual capacity to recognise them for what they are and work through them. It's really no surprise that he's been "wilful" or that he's desperate for squash or juice -- he's getting some powerful messages from his body.

That doesn't (obviously!) mean that he needs to actually have squash or that your father should have undermined you, but I hope that you have talked through with DS2 (and continue to talk through with him) at an age-appropriate level how our bodies can make us feel like we really NEED something when we don't at all, and how we can handle that effectively, rather than just telling him he can't have stuff and leaving him to it while complaining that he's whining. Does he get acknowledgment for how well he's doing and that you know he's finding it difficult, or just blame when he's not coping so well?

It's always tickled me, the way Catholics Christians ignore all the difficult bits, especially the old testament teachings. e.g we're all for Pancake Day , but for Lent, we can give up say, buying a newspaper and call it quits. And most of the dietary restrictions have been conveniently forgotten. I particular enjoy the thing about puffin being OK on a Friday, because it was considered more fish than meat

I think you and your family sound lovely OP. Your way of life has been attacked and you've graciously explained and answered our questions without being defensive or judging those who chose to live differently to you. There are many, here and elsewhere, who could learn much from you.

I don't think your DH sounds terrible either. He has strong beliefs but when it really mattered to you (the circumcisions) he conceded.

Grandad sounds fab to TBH. It's lovely that he's so involved in the boys' lives. He shouldn't have undermined you but he did it out of love/concern for a small boy. Let him off!

In my opinion Religion (and I mean this in a general sense) is all about imposing control on others. Who decides what is 'right' and wrong? Make up your own mind & open your eyes. Don't impose your beliefs on your children more than you have to.

Absolutely everything Hakluyt has said on this thread makes complete sense.

Remind

Christians don't ignore the difficult bits. The newer parts (Jesus, cross etc) in theory make the older parts (don't eat shellfish, periods are dirty) unnecessary.

I'm sorry people think my tone is combative but this stuff is way closer to child abuse than people on this thread are willing to admit. It's scary to me that someone looks at modern christianity and their concern is that it's too permissive. Mumsnet is responding like this is some cutesy diet choice. It's not. These communities are usually very well meaning but promote ignorance about the outside world (no news but mumsnet is ok ), have backwards sexual views, overly emphasize sin and shame and are very black and white and rigid about... well, everything. Kids are left completely unprepared for the real world and the closed communities are a great opportunity for abuse.

As a kid from a background like this, I will say that the only children who actually still believe are those with parents who were actually able to be flexible with their kids and actually tried to encourage true belief in their kids not just blind adherence to the rules. If the OP is already arguing with her 4 year old son about juice, the chances of him still believing in God at 30 are basically minuscule.

11 pages over a glass of squash. Really? REALLY?!?

YABU OP. Your child's teacher and loving grandparent was concerned for their physical and mental wellbeing in that moment and decided to override a minor house rule on a single occasion. Presumably since he is there teaching every day he knows you only have water with meals. Perhaps he wanted to reassure your child that lent isn't supposed to feel like a personal punishment, but rather a time of camaraderie-through-shared-sacrifice-of-minor-things. Maybe he realises that a child who isn't being listened to, who is regarded as "wilful" for having strong emotions about his lifestyle being altered in a way he has no say in or control over, and who might, aged FOUR need help with those strong emotions would benefit from being allowed a teeny tiny "victory". Or maybe he just realised your thirsty, crying DS wasn't going to learn much after his miserable lunch.

YABVU. It's squash. Get a grip.

I have a friend that is 7th Day Adventist, and they (and I believe other similar churches) keep kosher, very strictly. She wouldn't make a 4yo do Lent though.

Fascinating learning a little about your faith / religion OP.

Couple of questions - am I right in thinking there are large numbers of your church in Israel? Orthodox Christians if you like? And do you have a dress code? If so, is it similar to the Hasidic Jews?

TIA!

Ended up reading all about Hebrew Roots and Rico Cortes. Fascinating.

Kitchen, 11 pages over a glass of squash but it didnt put you off posting.