'Hold me back I'm bout' to sp**?' [[Title edited by MNHQ]]

[NoArmaniNoPunani]

I know Kanye West is a monumental douchecanoe but this line from his latest song with Paul McCartney is a step too far even for him.

I have CP and I never act like massive bellend Kanye.

AIBU to think Paul McCartney might have refused to put his name to a song that uses that line?

judgerinder The doctor often informs us about dd's retarded growth and her retarded lung function. You call her retarded and I'd see you in court.
She has muscle spasticity, again, fine. Call her a spaz and I'll see you in the same place. Context makes the difference, but you don't really need to be told that do you, you're playing silly games, to what end I don't know, but that's what it is.

You always are mrsdv though I mourn the loss of any 'shove something up his arse' sentence in this context :)

Taylor Swift was tweeting this term last week

I cannot believe that there are still people who deny the truth of words. Why is it so important to them to be able to use them? Why do they refuse to see that they are discriminatory and WRONG?

Have you ever heard someone say hey, Jill, you're such a sp*z- so intelligent and knowledgeable, I admire you a lot.

No. They take words that describe a person by or as their disability (or ethnicity - or religion - country of origin - or gender for that matter) and use it where the words that could be substituted are not - lovely, wonderful, kind, sweet, generous, thoughtful - but they are arsehole, fucker etc.

What does that say? It says that those words are insults.

The reason words keep changing (and we get all the pc gorn maaaaaad crap) is because we have a cycle - a word that was used in a medical term is seized by people and used as an insult. So the medical term has to change.

The word is changed by people’s use of it.

People then take the new word and start to use IT as an insult. What does that tell you? That it's not the word. It’s the intent. If doctors started calling a disability 'umbrella' I bet you a million quid than in 10 years people would be yelling you fucking umbrella at each other.

They MEAN to use conditions as insults. They say that what you are is the worst thing to be. And by doing so, they insult a lot of people.

Now, I know that's not difficult to understand so I can only assume it's a matter of whether a person gives a shit or not.

"I cannot believe that there are still people who deny the truth of words. Why is it so important to them to be able to use them? Why do they refuse to see that they are discriminatory and WRONG?"

There are always people like this. The professionally unoffended. They are always popping up claiming the right to give their children gollywogs and saying all their black friends love being called "niggah" and isn't it a shame that we've lost that lovely word "gay" and it's not as if they ever look very gay do they? They are really rather disgusting.

"it's not offensive in America" and similar arguments in this thread

Barrel-scraping. It isn't widely acknowledged as offensive in America, except by people who are personally affected by those disabilities. It's still offensive, because any thinking, feeling human being can see it's hurtful to use someone's medical condition to mock other people, if they think about it for just an instant. If, as a population, Americans aren't widely aware that it's cruel and stigmatising to do that, then that indicates that this is an area in which the USA hasn't caught up with the UK, culturally.

It does not, in any way, form a cogent argument for not finding it offensive to mock disability. Would anyone think human sacrifice was okay if I pointed to a culture that didn't find it horrifying and barbaric? No? Funny that, because it's the exact same format of argument: "hey, they do it, so it must be okay!" with no other reasoning appended.

I grew up very sensitive about all such words (especially 'retarded' and 'mental'), feeling defensive about a close family member.

Tbh I think it was wasted energy and I spent a lot of time being upset about stuff that meant nothing.

You can't change the way other people talk. They usually don't mean anything by it, anyway.

"Mum went MENTAL..."
"Argh, I'm a spazzer... I'll have to go home and change."
"Are you deaf? I've told you twice to get changed..."
"That teacher's an idiot."
"Miliband's speech was lame."

All of this can be read as disablist. But it's all entrenched usage and, on reflection, none of it is meant as a slight to anyone with disabilities.

People directly abusing kids with disabilities- that's another issue entirely. They may or may not use such language. All such attacks should be stopped and all the perpetrators whatever their age made to feel ashamed of their disgraceful actions.

OP, YABU to pay attention to whatever some shitty rapper or bloody Paul McCartney might say.

Do you know what? It's threads like these that make me (for the most part) love Mumsnet.

For every disablist, ignorant comment made, there are a raft of posters that will come out to challenge it. And thank God there are.

The arguments "for" it are crap, and we all know it. Pulling the "acceptable in America" or dictionary definition cards don't work, because I think most of us are intelligent enough and have unfortunately witnessed it enough to know that they are derogatory terms here, and have been for a long time now.

I do tend to get touchy over the use of the word meltdown, but that's personal, because 2 of my children have autism. One is severely disabled, and when I see/read of someone describing a meltdown over not getting a toy or smudging their nail varnish or whatever, it does tend to make me a little stabby- I quite often wish they could witness a true autistic meltdown, I'd happily leave them to try and deal with it

to Dawns DD, the shoes are fabulous!

AllThatGListens

Completely get you re: autistic meltdowns. Tbh I feel a bit weird when people joke about being desperate for their kids to shut up. I'd love for the autistic person in my life to be able to talk at all.

Allthatglistens, I think there are a huge amount of people (myself included) who would be just mortified if they knew their use of the word 'meltdown' in any way connected to your dc, and I'd just like to apologise . After polter (very graciously) explained to me the issue up thread I know I won't use that term again, and I will pass on what I know now.
It shouldn't always be left to those with direct experience to educate the rest of us, but I'm grateful you have.

Language matters

No one has ever been harmed by not being allowed to call someone a mong.
Nobody's human rights were ever diluted by having to find another word for retarded.*

This.

What mrsdv said.
With fucking bells on.

I don't like the phrase and wouldn't use it, but as far as Kanye West is concerned.... well he seems to be a bit of a prick so I'm hardly surprised.

I contain my dislike of the man by not reading anything about him or listening to his music.

It's quite easy to avoid him really.

I think it's a horrible word. Using disability as an insult - what's wrong with people and how can you NOT find that offensive? My Mum had MS and it stings anytime I hear that word and I will always pull people up on it.

I'm on a birth club board on another forum and one of the mums asked if it was ok to use earphones whilst her baby was 'spazzing out. Lolz'. I told her using earphones was probably ok but using the term 'spazzing out' was not. She replied 'oh, chill your beans will you'. Whatever the fuck that means. It saddens me that this mum will use words like this with her kid making them seem acceptable.

We're talking about different things, MrsDV. You're talking about abuse or cruel / thoughtless language directed at someone vulnerable. OP isn't on about that but about the more generalised use of terms once more restricted in meaning. "I'm about to spazz" as opposed to "Your kid is a spazzer."

Sorry people spoke so thoughtlessly about your late daughter.

No mildly we are not talking about different things. Mindless use of nigger is as unacceptable as mindless use of paki, ergo as mindless use of spaz. Using it in a mindless fashion is what makes it acceptable and it isn't. That's why we no longer use nigger to describe black people, or paki to describe asian people. It's why we use black actors and don't 'black up' for roles. It's no longer mainstream because many folk made the effort to ensure that was the case. If we continue to cause a commotion about spaz and retard et al being used mindlessly we too shall win in the end. It takes effort to do the right thing sometimes, and objecting to a words use is effort, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

The thing is, we can never stamp out ALL such language... we really can't. Do you ever describe something as idiotic? Or lame? Or describe a man as "drooling over" something? Or say you're "hitting your head against a wall" or "tearing out your hair in frustration" [both things my brother does]? Or describe governmental plans as "lunacy"? Which ones are offensive?

the ones that hurt and upset people.

And of course we could stamp out such language. If we wanted to.

We could - just stop saying it. It's not that people do not have the ability to choose their words.

It's not that it can't be done. There is no physical barrier preventing it. It's the lack of desire to bother.

Well, you may be right, dawndonna. Perhaps I despair of changing anything because my own milieu isn't exactly what you'd call enlightened. In my national newspaper yesterday there was a lovely travel item describing Russian tourists in Montenegro as "streetwalkers" because they wore miniskirts. I did challenge that lovely bit of misogyny / Slavophobia combined... perhaps it's worth getting upset about 'mental' again. My childhood was spent having fights about my brother/language, so I've really quite weary of it all.

But I'd note that Paki is quite often used neutrally Down Under, golliwogs are normal toys in New Zealand (sold at exclusive boutques). I think the argument that "spaz" is acceptable in America has more validity than you'd think. Just because something is unacceptable in the UK doesn't mean the rest of the world will follow suit, alas.

HowCan- do you consider all my examples offensive? Equally so?

I don't seek to control all language. However, I do accept that language changes and evolves, interestingly though, you have managed to avoid those that haven't evolved, despite being given time, mong, spaz, nigger. Idiotic has moved on from the days when it was used to describe people in an asylum, people who wouldn't have heard the word being used, commonly, about them. The same with lunatic. Life has changed, those with Cerebral Palsy are not in general holed up in asylums are they, they are in their homes, in supermarkets, in schools, on the street, part of a wider and more inclusive society, just as black people have always been, hence the need for the removal of nigger as an insult. And actually I don't use idiotic or lunacy. So there is a difference, and it would be kind to fight for what is right, wouldn't it.