to want help dealing with the "fuck you" response I just got from cbeebies re woolly & tig complaint?

[Disgruntledfromblahblah]

There is an episode of Woolly & Tig called Dobbin shown a few days ago. It is about a horse dying, all very simplified but the only explanation of death given is that Dobbin "was happy and went to sleep".

Luckily I was in the room to hear this and able to counteract the bullshit by telling my 4yo that sleep and death are not the same. Having had to deal with a death in the family recently I thought it was widely accepted now that you should never associate death and sleep where children are concerned because it causes confusion and upset. I called bbc complaints immediately to ask them not to show this episode again (they quite often double up on some shows during the day and I do not want another child to be confused by this) and do their homework before raising the topic of grief. I clearly explained that I have no problem with them using the subject of death but I did expect it to be done in an educated manner not using backwards terminology which will cause more harm than good.

This morning I got a brush off email and the episode is still displayed on iplayer so presumably will be shown again elsewhere. Please can I have some help here, I am not sure how best to answer this apart from telling them thanks for nothing and given their ignorance I have no choice but to escalate to mn!! Maybe if they get more complaints they will update their grief management protocol beyond the 1950s?

Here is the brush off email response I got this morning;

[email protected]

Dear Disgruntled

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your terrible loss ... We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

Kind Regards

CBeebies
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

The response may have been polite but it was a complete brush off, will not lead to any change in approach and also sounds like a standard response given that a couple of other people have made the same complaint and said the response they got was very similar. I think I would consider taking it to the next level and including in that complaint the references to the major charities so that it is very clear that you are not just talking about your personal feelings but from an evidence based position.

I'm afraid so, mrsduff

Nooka you are right- this is my response from over a year ago-

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your loss and the impact it’s had on your daughter. We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

CBeebies

Kind Regards

So it's a standard response to a complaint they have obviously had before. It does feel a bit more fuck-offish now to me

My complaint was very specific about the terminology but I also wrote how pleased I was they were covering a difficult topic. This meant the standard paragraph left in about why they cover it was quite insulting as I praised them for covering the topic!

That is very disappointing to discover it is a stock reply...

Thanks for posting that dippy, I think this has given me the boost I need to take the complaints process further and see if any of the charities will back me up. The fact that they have a standard issue brush off letter dedicated to this one episode speaks volumes.

I am surprised people are grumbling about a stock reply. Would you prefer for your licence fee to increase considerably so that the BBC can afford to employ many more people to craft individual personalised letters to each complaint it receives? it's a publicly funded corporation, and the replies in each case were appropriate and measured.

I too agree with the OP. Death should not be equated with sleep for children, the BBC should have done some (very basic!) research. Especially now we realise her reply was a stock letter!

Op, I don't think YABU at all. If they were using outdated terminology regarding race it disability then they'd be lynched. They need to have a look at the recommendations of those in the front line advising people on how to deal with grieving children.

YABU and a coming across as a bit of a know it all, and actually I think you are wrong.

It is perfectly fine to compare death with sleep, there are parallels! It isn't "being educated" that will prevent people making the comparison, it is "listening to one silly meaningless fad, amongst several others!"

you can explain in what way death is like sleep, and in what way it isn't.

in any case, a lot of dying people do go to sleep. That is in fact what happens!

OP I agree that this is a serious editorial issue and I'm surprised that the team didn't consult information from the appropriate charities when they were making this program, especially due to the sensitivity of the subject matter.

It was however unreasonable to think that the episode would be pulled from the schedule on the basis of your email.

On the issue of the "stock" reply, there will be an agreed reply written because it will have needed to be signed off by various people within the BBC.

The number of complaints will be monitored and this information will be available to the management team at CBeebies.

You do have a point. I remember finding these seriously creepy as a child, and they defintely didn't help me sleep:

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep,
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take. Amen.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,
Bless the bed that I lie on.
Four corners to my bed,
Four angels round my head;
One to watch and one to pray
And two to bear my soul away

I know I'm being blunt but I think you have too much time on your hands if you're writing letters about this.

professor - that's a bit mean. She's suffering a bereavement, and helping her DC through it. She watches something which is worded wrongly on the most popular channel for preschoolers, from the BBC who are supposed to be responsibility about these things. She cares enough to try to get it changed so that other children don't get confused.

The reason why a stock reply is irritating is because it didn't address the points that a number of people who have complained have made and shows very little thought has been put into addressing their concerns.

Neither the OP nor the other person who contacted CBBC complained about the death story line itself (indeed dippymootoo actually praised them for doing so), but the way that the story was told, and yet half the response is justifying them talking about death. So most of the response is completely irrelevant.

In fact the issue raised by both the OP and dippymootoo isn't actually addressed at all. They confirm that yes they did say that Dobbin had gone to sleep (when in fact he had died) qualified that they also said he was old and in pain and then said that other people had liked the episode, and although they did say that comments wodul be 'taken into consideration' give very little assurance that they had even heard the issue raised.

As for taxpayers money, it would have been better if the program makers had done even a five minute Google, seen that the advice is consistently NOT to talk about 'going to sleep' and made the program just a little bit differently. Then they wouldn't have had to spend the time to make a stock reply to send to the people whose children may have been worried or distressed by the program.

I get what you are saying about appropriate terminology however I do think it is worth keeping in mind that the advice about discussing death from w.w. etc was specifically aimed at a child who has actually and recently been bereaved, who is currently going through the bereavement process. However the programme in question is designed to introduce the concept of loss to children who haven't been through it but may in the future whilst remaining in the bounds of a children's tv show.

The programme is designed to introduce a difficult concept without being overly scary. Now a child who has lost someone close would, potentially, find sleep or gone very upsetting but when it is still a fairly abstract concept I don't think there is quite the same association or response. I would be interested to hear from W.w. About introducing the concept in its basic form as this programme attempts to, I suspect there won't be quite the same stress placed on the language used.

I know I'm being blunt but I think you have too much time on your hands if you're writing letters about this.

Pot. Kettle. Black.