to want help dealing with the "fuck you" response I just got from cbeebies re woolly & tig complaint?

[Disgruntledfromblahblah]

There is an episode of Woolly & Tig called Dobbin shown a few days ago. It is about a horse dying, all very simplified but the only explanation of death given is that Dobbin "was happy and went to sleep".

Luckily I was in the room to hear this and able to counteract the bullshit by telling my 4yo that sleep and death are not the same. Having had to deal with a death in the family recently I thought it was widely accepted now that you should never associate death and sleep where children are concerned because it causes confusion and upset. I called bbc complaints immediately to ask them not to show this episode again (they quite often double up on some shows during the day and I do not want another child to be confused by this) and do their homework before raising the topic of grief. I clearly explained that I have no problem with them using the subject of death but I did expect it to be done in an educated manner not using backwards terminology which will cause more harm than good.

This morning I got a brush off email and the episode is still displayed on iplayer so presumably will be shown again elsewhere. Please can I have some help here, I am not sure how best to answer this apart from telling them thanks for nothing and given their ignorance I have no choice but to escalate to mn!! Maybe if they get more complaints they will update their grief management protocol beyond the 1950s?

Here is the brush off email response I got this morning;

[email protected]

Dear Disgruntled

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your terrible loss ... We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

Kind Regards

CBeebies
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

I don't think it's up to the BBC to be educating toddlers on things like dying and I don't think they did in this case. If you want to cover the subject in more depth then of course that's up to you. But not surprised they brushed off your complaint. I thought it was quite a pleasant response.

I'm with you on this, my mum died when I was a very young child and when she died I was told she went to sleep and went to heaven! 24 years on I still have major sleep issues stemming from being told that! She had cancer and died she didn't just go to sleep and never wake up like i was told! I was petrified to go to sleep at night in case I didn't wake up!
Good on you op for putting a complaint in!

Sorry to hear about the recent death in your family, OP, but in this situation, YABU. Their response is not a "fuck you" one, by any stretch. The programme also affords an opportunity for parents to address the subject with their DC. They're really not going to change the schedules, or edit a programme on your request.

I saw the show too and said straight away to my daughter 'gosh they've got it all wrong haven't they, dying and sleeping aren't the same at all!' She's four too, and that was enough to make sure she wasn't confused, we have had to talk about death a lot recently and she is one to obsess and worry.
They aren't going to stop showing the episode, and YABU to expect them too, although I understand why you found it irritating because I had to make sure my DD didn't link sleep and death together too.

Messy hair- I'm always surprised the term "born asleep" is acceptable. Because they're just not, are they? It's not like they're going to wake up.

So I kind of agree with o/p. Sleep and death are two different things and I'd never use sleep when talking about death. My experience of the media though is they always think they're right, so yabu to think they'd change it ...

Ha! I though that episode was done brilliantly and was one of the "carers" that contacted them to say so

I see your point, confusing death with sleep can be very frightening for children.

On the other hand what were they supposed to say? There are so many different beliefs about what might happen after death that picking on one of them would be sure to upset parents who hold other beliefs. Some versions are pretty brutal, e.g. I think we stop to exist when we die but still told DD that her cat and grandfather had gone to the stars. I will tell her the truth about what I think but not at 3yo.

Very interested to hear your alternative.

You can escalate to the BBC Trust if you're not happy.

At least they didn't say "gone to heaven".

I think that was quite a reasonable response from the BBC

Any particular reason why you are leaving the concept of explaining death to Cbeebies? Because that's how you're coming across, I'm afraid.

You don't like the turn of phrase, okay. You take the opportunity to explain in a way you prefer, but only if your dc mentions it. You suddenly sit them down and start talking about death after they have enjoyed W&T then you are just making them more upset, IMHO.

Sorry for your loss, truly I am, but I think YABU.

WRT what to say instead, I tell my daughter 'some people believe x or y or z, and I don't know because no-one comes back to tell us'. I'm not saying that would work for every child, but I have balanced my DD's need to know everything with my need to tell her the truth.

I agree with the OP.

'Gone to sleep' is a ridiculous euphemism for death when dealing with very young children who are still learning to sleep in a room on their own in the dark. Surely at that age, you want children to associate only positive thoughts with falling to sleep?

If they want to make a programme covering the death of an animal, they should at least think carefully about the terminology they use and the age group it's aimed at.

I think Hedgehog's approach is sensible.

We've had to tell explain to our dds - twice, as it happens - that some people die because they are very poorly. We couldn't dress up advanced ms in someone aged 34, or a horrendous death from a brain tumour aged 40 any other way. We also went to great length to explain that it's not something that is usual and they have nothing to fear because mummy has a cold this week.

You explain how you feel is apappropriate. If you think media explanation is not acceptable, switch it off.

I'm sorry for your loss OP but the BBC's response was not a 'fuck you' at all and you're being a bit extreme to expect them to apologise, let alone to never air that episode again.

Do you phone tv programmes and order them to remove episodes?
Did you expect them to say 'yes Madam we ll do as you say'?
How bizzarre to get so worked up with their reply?

Also, do you have a mission to educatate the bbc producers and to protect the public?
Wow what an arrogance OP!

I used Winston's Wish and the Child Bereavement advice line for what to say. Both were very strong on the total avoidance of sleep related terminology, also went away etc, it is best to remain factual and that can be tricky when a tv show unexpectedly does otherwise.

Trust me I have not had the luxury of being able to leave explanations of death to a tv show or until dc are older!! I did assume that research would have gone into cbeebies and was surprised to hear the opposite of what is advised by child bereavement guidelines being spoken on what I have considered to be a well thought out channel.

I accept that I am being overly sensitive and have asked for the thread to be removed.

Why should the thread be removed because you've made an arse of yourself? This post will probably be removed; but the thread will presumably remain.

YABU

On second thoughts I think people have got a point saying that young children shouldn't be confused with sleep and death. Especially when bereavement advisors specifically advise this is a bad idea. And good points about children going to sleep in their own rooms and so on.

I don't think people realise that this isn't just the view of one random person.

All the major bereavement charities say that associating death and sleep is a mistake.

I'm surprised the OP thought her complaint would have the episode taken off the air, and I'm surprised the OP thought the letter was a brush off, but the actual content of the complaint I agree with.

Perhaps you would be better to contact Winston's Wish and the Child Bereavement people with regard to this TV programme.

Woolly & Tig is, what, five minutes long? I wouldn't expect much more than a brief (but sensitive) explanation of death in a preschoolers' programme of that length.

Besides, is it not appropriate to use the programme as a springboard to a longer conversation about death with a parent, instead of expecting CBeebies to tackle the entire thing on your behalf?

What Miscellaneous said ^. Maybe raise it with those charities OP so they can contact the BBC to offer their help if they want to tackle this kind of subject again.

I guess Winston's Wish were advising you as a parent, and as said upthread, no doubt the BBC or whoever also took advice and considering the programme was aimed at childrne of differing ages with the hope that they were sitting watching with parents? or at least had an adult to ask?