to want help dealing with the "fuck you" response I just got from cbeebies re woolly & tig complaint?

[Disgruntledfromblahblah]

There is an episode of Woolly & Tig called Dobbin shown a few days ago. It is about a horse dying, all very simplified but the only explanation of death given is that Dobbin "was happy and went to sleep".

Luckily I was in the room to hear this and able to counteract the bullshit by telling my 4yo that sleep and death are not the same. Having had to deal with a death in the family recently I thought it was widely accepted now that you should never associate death and sleep where children are concerned because it causes confusion and upset. I called bbc complaints immediately to ask them not to show this episode again (they quite often double up on some shows during the day and I do not want another child to be confused by this) and do their homework before raising the topic of grief. I clearly explained that I have no problem with them using the subject of death but I did expect it to be done in an educated manner not using backwards terminology which will cause more harm than good.

This morning I got a brush off email and the episode is still displayed on iplayer so presumably will be shown again elsewhere. Please can I have some help here, I am not sure how best to answer this apart from telling them thanks for nothing and given their ignorance I have no choice but to escalate to mn!! Maybe if they get more complaints they will update their grief management protocol beyond the 1950s?

Here is the brush off email response I got this morning;

[email protected]

Dear Disgruntled

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your terrible loss ... We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

Kind Regards

CBeebies
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

I dont think you've made an arse of yourself, i think you are right. They shouldnt associate sleep and death, as you say - it is against the advice given by the people who know what they are talking about and they claim to have researched it!!

When i've seen it, i may well join you in a complaint.

sorry for your loss

If its supposed to be designed as a 'springboard' seaoflove, then just say the horse died? Then child says "mummy, what is died?". Job done. No need for euphemisms, as you said, its only five mins long

I think sometimes people need to give children a little more credit than they do. My partner committed suicide when my son was a baby. I still feel he is too young (8) to understand suicide, so from a young age, when he asked, he was told his daddy died because he was very sad. Granted, we are catholic so I can also add on 'Jesus decided he would be happier in heaven and he watches you from there', but I made it clear from the offset that he would never die of sadness, that it was an adult thing and not anything to worry children. He took me at my word and has no issue. Children are trusting of their parents, just explain there is a difference between going to sleep at night and going to sleep when you are very old.

where is Dobbin

Dobbin's not here just now

where is Dobbin

Dobbin's gone away

when can I see Dobbin again

you wont be seeing Dobbin again, Dobbin died

but where did Dobbin go

he went to sleep

Dobbin just went to sleep, he was very happy

...

nothing wrong with feeling sad, etc but hey Dobbin is happy now, ... he is galloping away in his dreams

It sounds like the programme used a description that many feel is fine, but isn't quite bang-up-to-the-minute in terms of specific guidelines. I don't think there is an absolute orthodoxy about the best way to to describe death to children among the general populace, and while the expert organisations you cite probably have the closest thing to a 'right' answer on how to do it, I don't think the programme's approach is as wildly outdated as your initial post suggests.

FWIW, I don't think most posters are criticising you for being a bit over-sensitive about the way they handled it, OP. Completely understandable in the circumstances, and I'm very sorry for your loss. Can totally understand why it might feel like the programme mishandled things if you're dealing with loss, having to explain it to children, and as a result are more acutely aware of the most current expert thinking on the issue (which I don't think a reasonably thoughtful programme will necessarily be).

I bet your child has completely forgotten all about this by now. You, on the other hand, sound unhealthily obsessed...

from child bereavementuk;

When talking to a child of any age, the following principles apply regardless of the circumstances
Use simple words appropriate for the child’s age and understanding. It is important to use the real words such as “dead”. Euphemisms including lost or gone to sleep may appear kinder but for a child can cause complication
and confusion.

YANBU - as people have said upthread, all the major charities working with bereaved children strongly advise against using "gone to sleep" as a euphemism for death - because the child gets confused, thinks maybe their relative will wake up, worries that they can't go to sleep safely, that their parents might die in their sleep, etc. etc.

And yes, it's difficult to explain death to a toddler - I had to handle explaining DM's death and DF's grief to DS when he was about 3. It exposes them to all sorts of thought processes that, in an ideal world, you wouldn't want them to have to handle till they're older. But the world isn't ideal, and sometimes the best you can do as a parent is try to offer lots of cuddles, love and the best attempt you can make at an age-appropriate explanation - but an age appropriate explanation should not be mistaken for a euphemism that will confuse the hell out of them and do more damage than good.

I bet if the programme had specifically said the horse died there would be a helluva lot more complaints

If you don't like it, don't let your child watch it.
You do have the option to turn it off.

It does say Dobbin died.

Maybe he died in his sleep?

Sad subject, and I'm sorry about your family's loss too.

I can understand your concerns but wouldn't expect them to take it down/apologise and the email was perfectly pleasant.

My dd is just 22 months but I always was told passed away when younger. When I asked around 4 I got an explanation including what others may call it and every time I heard those phrases I knew what they meant.

Sorry about your loss OP.

I think the op has got a very hard time here. I totally agree that the wording they used is inappropriate to describe death and goes against all recommendations on how to handle bereavement and death with children.

I think she was a bit ott expecting them to pull the programme on her say so but she certainly hasn't made an arse of herself, on the other hand I think some of you have been pretty nasty

I'm sorry for you bereavement OP. Don't feel that you need to have the thread removed, I think you've raised some very important points which could do with more discussion.

I haven't seen the programme, so I can't really comment on that.

However, I don't think the reply you received was a 'fuck you' at all. In fact I think it was quite polite. There's another thread somewhere on here, where someone else has contacted the Beeb, and theirs really was a fuck off and stop bothering us.

They were never going to pull the episode on one persons say so anyway. If they did that, there wouldn't be anything left on telly.

YANBU that they have used inappropriate terminology - why on earth do people think that linking going to sleep with death is helpful for children? Unfortunately I can't imagine that they will change their programming or stop using an episode they've spent money producing, so their response much as I'd expect you to get.
Sorry for your loss, and the hard time you've got on this thread!

Why should the thread be removed because you've made an arse of yourself?

She has not made an arse out of herself at all.

Sure, she was a bit over sensitive but I think most people here have enough empathy to understand why.

OP, my kids lost their dad to cancer a year ago and I too had a lot of contact with Nelsons Journey and before he died I had contact with Macmillan to help me guide the children through his death. They too said you should never equate death with sleeping for children as it can cause deep fears and they often get confused and think they can just wake up again. There is a reason bereavement teams advise against this, it is confusing, can cause sleep phobias and does not help with the bereavement process.

So YANBU not to like it or write a complaint.

Sorry for your loss guiding my kids through their dad's death was the hardest thing I have ever done and comments like 'he has just gone to sleep' which we did get, really did not help.

I wouldn't have personally complained but your opinion is backed up by many professionals.

As if CBeebies would change their schedule to suit one lone loon.

That is a disgusting thing to say to someone who is supporting a child through grief.

She is not a 'loon'. She is right, you should never use going to sleep for death in young children.

If you don't agree with her at least you could show some compassion?

Awful sentence above but I think you can work out what I mean!

Thank you U2 for giving disgruntled some support and understanding. Not saying others haven't, just you obviously really do understand how she's feeling. Top prize for compassion & humanity goes to Flogging Molly not. You have no idea of the OP's frame of mind. Butt out if you have nothi g supportive to say. I imagine her emotions are all over the place, so we can forgive her exaggerating BBC's response.

I'm getting so sick of threads being deleted like this.

I think the reply isn't a 'fuck you' but I agree that the episode is pretty poor given current best practise in dealing with death and small children. I thought the same thing when I first saw it as the OP did.

My DM died recently so we have spent a lot of time talking to a 3 yo about death. Even being very very careful DD got worried about dying while she was asleep.

Well said, U2.

I don't agree that CBeebies gave the OP the brush off at all. I think it was a fairly considered response. However, the OP is right that it's a bit silly to say to children that someone/thing has 'gone to sleep' when they've died. She's raising a vaild point.

But even if she wasn't - the OP clearly said her family had been through a recent bereavement and really doesn't need (or merit) the very hard time she's been given on this thread.

They should not be using that terminology. I thought people knew that these days.

I can't believe how rude people have been either.

If any of you have been in the situation of calming a child who is terrified to go sleep because someone has used that terminology with reference to a death you would understand the OP's concerns.

Having said that, the email was polite in spite of not actually addressing the issue at all.

What the BBC could actually do would be to rename the episode "Poor Dobin goes to sleep" or something so that people who want to avoid that euphemism or the topic of death completely can skip the episode.