to want help dealing with the "fuck you" response I just got from cbeebies re woolly & tig complaint?

[Disgruntledfromblahblah]

There is an episode of Woolly & Tig called Dobbin shown a few days ago. It is about a horse dying, all very simplified but the only explanation of death given is that Dobbin "was happy and went to sleep".

Luckily I was in the room to hear this and able to counteract the bullshit by telling my 4yo that sleep and death are not the same. Having had to deal with a death in the family recently I thought it was widely accepted now that you should never associate death and sleep where children are concerned because it causes confusion and upset. I called bbc complaints immediately to ask them not to show this episode again (they quite often double up on some shows during the day and I do not want another child to be confused by this) and do their homework before raising the topic of grief. I clearly explained that I have no problem with them using the subject of death but I did expect it to be done in an educated manner not using backwards terminology which will cause more harm than good.

This morning I got a brush off email and the episode is still displayed on iplayer so presumably will be shown again elsewhere. Please can I have some help here, I am not sure how best to answer this apart from telling them thanks for nothing and given their ignorance I have no choice but to escalate to mn!! Maybe if they get more complaints they will update their grief management protocol beyond the 1950s?

Here is the brush off email response I got this morning;

[email protected]

Dear Disgruntled

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your terrible loss ... We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

Kind Regards

CBeebies
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

I am sorry but I don't think its necessary for your four year old to know the exact fate of the horse on woolley and tig.

Drumming it into a four year old ( and one who has had recent death in family) that the horse, really did die is un necessary and cruel.

Yanbu and I hope the thread stays.

Terminology one tuff like this needs really careful thought. They should have said they would consider feeding it into their policies for the future.

I cans we how it would be disturbing and if Winston's Wish thinks that too I'm with you OP

They don't always do their research anyway: On a much more mundane level Topsy and Tim repeatedly referred to 'the Twins' when TAMBA or any psychologist would agree that it's terrible for self image not to be referred to by your own name.

I've a lot of respect for CBeebies usually though

I agree with Knitted

How frank do we need to be with a very small child? "Dobbin died because he was old or ill and the vet had to shoot him with a bolt gun or give him a lethal injection"

I agree the term is wrong, however I am still not sure op needed to rush in and stop the bull shit....for her 4 year old....

I should not have said I got a "fuck you" response, that was too strong a phrase.

I do think that, polite as it is, the email response did brush off my complaint, which I made calmly and by phone, as soon as the show had aired. I have never complained to cbeebies before and have always trusted it as a channel I can leave dcs with unchaperoned.

I don't always watch tv along with and it was a matter of chance that I was in the room at the time. I am glad I am not the only one who thought the content was badly handled and just want to be able to trust that a child's tv channel doesn't come out of left field like this in future. Cbeebies are usually good, they have a responsibility and should do their homework.

I just think children are aware of the reactions of people around them....if we drop something on the floor and make a song and dance out of it - they will copy....

I think its dangerous to make such a big deal of death to such a young child....

I understand your concerns and I don't think their email addressed them.

They made it sound like you objected to death being discussed, when in fact you objected to the way they discussed it - in terms of sleep.

I would feel misunderstood certainly.

Drumming it into a four year old ( and one who has had recent death in family) that the horse, really did die is un necessary and cruel.

What a load of bollocks this is.

Cruel? to explain to a child that the horse is not asleep but actually dead?

When you deal with grief in children you have to be very matter of fact. You can't pretty it up and put a bow on it. The horse died, he did not go to sleep. There is nothing cruel with wanting to tell a child who has already dealt with death that the horse is dead.

My dd is 6 years old and she had to watch her brothers grieve over their dad and death was talked about for a year because after they lost their dad to cancer they then lost two granddads to cancer a few months apart. She got scared by it all and did actually fear sleeping at one point.

Once a child has suffered a loss you can no longer protect them from death and it is always better to be honest about it. It causes less confusion and they also know they can trust you to be honest with them.

Ok - look here:

www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/contact_us/making_a_complaint.html

You have completed stage one. At that stage, the person dealing with it probably just needs to be satisfied it was all within current guidance from the BBC to independent production companies etc.

If you think the guidance should be changed, you need to go to the next stage. I would go for the head of BBC children's programming and suggest they contact Winston's Wish to see what they make of it.

I suspect you are right, and I suspect if you escalate it - politely and firmly - you will get somewhere. You need to distinguish your (reasonable) point from the slew of outraged letters they get about any attempt to handle a serious issue / any issue at all.

Sorry for your loss but yabu. Its actually quite a well thought out response I think. They won't pull a show off air because a viewer didn't approve or like the content.

I asked them to rethink one episode not a whole show, as someone else has pointed out it is 5 min of time, I am sure they could replace it with another episode.

Did you really expect them to never use the show again just on your say so?

as said upathread, YABU I am afraid

They would need a lot of complaints to pull a show. I imagine it would need to be quite controversial.which Wooly & Tig isn't. Sorry you have had a bereavement,I think that is clouding your judgement completely.
Their reply was polite,empathetic & not fuck you at all,

They have been polits and courteous enough to reply to you.

The email isn't snotty or undermining - far from fuck you.

I'm very sorry for your loss and I understand where you're coming from but really?

They won't just stop airing shows on your say so. If I'm honest it's trivial at best. Probably not what you want to hear

Isn't 'putting an animal to sleep' a well used expression ?

I agree that sleep and death shouldn't be interchangeable with small children.
It's all very well to say that it gives the opportunity fo discussion, but what if you'd missed that phrase as you popped to the loo?

It's all very well to say that it gives the opportunity fo discussion, but what if you'd missed that phrase as you popped to the loo?

the child would have probably happily watched episode and thought nothing more about it!

Replace it why? I actually agree that we should be more matter if fact with children but others won't agree. Where do you draw the line? Can we all have episodes that upset us taken off air?

ohmychrist are you seriously calling the OP a "loon" for expressing her upset?

I think it's quite clear from this thread that there is no one best way of discussing death with very young children. Casting aspersions on the OP's state of mental health for her own perspective, whether you agree with that perspective or not, is pretty crass.

One of the major barriers to helping children through grief are the very different needs of adults, which get projected onto the child's experience.

It's an adult need to use euphemisms and metaphors and soften the terminology of death.

Unfortunately this need is in direct conflict with a child's need for simple, clear and accurate information about death.

It's something grief charities like Winstons and Cruise are trying to change but culturally we're slow to take this on... Probably because it doesn't 'feel right' as adults think they are protecting children by using these adult euphemisms, whereas they are confusing at best, damaging at worst.

I hope we do learn how to talk to children properly about death, and we come to look back on these phrases in the same way we understand the errors of generations before us.

Like, 'shut the child out of the reality of losing a loved one, send them away and never mention it again' ... Most people know that's a big mistake now, but it was what people did 20-30 years ago. And it's easy to see why, it's a hell of a lot easier than having to see and deal with a child's grief, so much more comforting to think you've shielded them from it, or that they aren't capable of feeling grief - a commonly held view that 'experts' believed.

I hope one day, we'll also understand the harm that phrases like 'we lost him', 'he's gone away', 'he's gone to sleep' do.

I would certainly have been a child who, if the word death was used interchangeably with sleep, would have worried that when I slept I was going to die, or my parents falling asleep meant they were going to die.

I work in TV and deal with loony complaints fairly often. Yours is not crazy at all, but the programme makers don't agree with your point of view. They very politely and respectfully told you that. Just because you complain does not make you right I'm afraid. For that matter I disagree with you too.

As for dumping a whole episode I can promise you that sucker cost thousands to make and buy the rights to. Pulling it due to the response of one viewer is not going to happen, quite rightly as that's the kind of censorship is unacceptable in every way.

The episode referred to was filmed at my yard. I'm not in the episode, my horse and my friend is. Tbh I know what you mean to a degree but overall I'm afraid yabu. You can't demand they don't show an episode.

It's not a 'fuck you' letter by any manner of means, but I'm with you on the whole sleep/death thing OP. We're terrible at dealing with death in this country, and tend to shy away from the topic or couch it in softly-softly terms. Death is death, and it's a part of life - it means that we no longer live, it doesn't mean we've gone to sleep.

Whilst I don't think they should necessarily take it off air, they could have written that scene better.

is this programme for pre-schoolers? and would pre-schoolers have just assumed the horse did in fact go to sleep rather than die?
arent preschoolers too young to know about death?

the parent/adult would have more input on a child's view on the subject of death.