to want help dealing with the "fuck you" response I just got from cbeebies re woolly & tig complaint?

[Disgruntledfromblahblah]

There is an episode of Woolly & Tig called Dobbin shown a few days ago. It is about a horse dying, all very simplified but the only explanation of death given is that Dobbin "was happy and went to sleep".

Luckily I was in the room to hear this and able to counteract the bullshit by telling my 4yo that sleep and death are not the same. Having had to deal with a death in the family recently I thought it was widely accepted now that you should never associate death and sleep where children are concerned because it causes confusion and upset. I called bbc complaints immediately to ask them not to show this episode again (they quite often double up on some shows during the day and I do not want another child to be confused by this) and do their homework before raising the topic of grief. I clearly explained that I have no problem with them using the subject of death but I did expect it to be done in an educated manner not using backwards terminology which will cause more harm than good.

This morning I got a brush off email and the episode is still displayed on iplayer so presumably will be shown again elsewhere. Please can I have some help here, I am not sure how best to answer this apart from telling them thanks for nothing and given their ignorance I have no choice but to escalate to mn!! Maybe if they get more complaints they will update their grief management protocol beyond the 1950s?

Here is the brush off email response I got this morning;

[email protected]

Dear Disgruntled

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your terrible loss ... We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

Kind Regards

CBeebies
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

PTS is standard very terminology, so the programme did nothing wrong.

VET terminology

I supposed euthanised is actually the correct vetinary terminology.

Yabvvvu, yes death is sometimes known as falling asleep. Have you ever read on gravestones so and so fell asleep. Yes some do go to sleep and never wake up. Their response is absolutely fine. Mabey you can explain to your child, your view on death. I lost my dad at 10, and gran, we all see death differently. I would have been absolutely fine with that response.

No, people don't go to sleep and never wake up.

They die in their sleep. That is totally different to not waking up as you know.

Whether it is sometimes known as falling asleep it besides the point.

It is not a recommended way to explaining death and many children are scared of falling asleep and never waking up when they are told that death is falling asleep.

If CBeebies are going to talk about death in any way they would do well getting some professional opinions on the best way to go about it.

My YS watched a programme where someone died recently when he was with MIL and came home asking why animals die. He's just turned 4, so I explained in a very basic way that sometimes animals, like people, get old and sick and their bodies don't work so well any more. He got it, no problems or issues, no hysterics or upsets. I think while it's an emotive topic, it doesn't harm children to be honest.

I think the OP is entirely right!

I think they approached the subject quite well in the 'Butterfly' episode of Bing.

I think the OP might be right, but the reply from the BBC was very polite. I don't think it's such a big issue that they should never show the programme again.

I do, though, have problems with the phrase "born asleep". The first couple of times I heard it, I was really thrown - I thought, "Surely that can't happen very often"? And then realised it meant "stillborn". I don't quite understand the reason for using the phrase.

I actually think it was a thoughtful considered response from the BBC.

It is good that they are including death, as part of life, in their programming. By portraying death the way they have, I think they have left the options open for parents in how they then talk to their children about it. Some parents would be happy with the terms they have used, and others will want to discuss it in a different way, as you do. I think the important thing to remember is that pre-school children will not be on their own watching this, but will be with an adult who can then gauge what further chat and discussion needs to take place afterwards, as indeed you were able to do.

I do see where you are coming from, OP, but I think the BBC are trying to keep all the options open for parents, as far as is possible.

Seeing as pts is a term in general use for animals I can't see the problem. This is an animal and it was pts by a vet. Sleep seems to be an appropriate term to use here, they weren't talking about a person. Why aren't people more worried that their children might not be able to sleep thinking their soft toys will suddenly start talking and dishing out advice!

I think the response from the BBC was fine but I do understand your point and completely agree with you. I can pin point the start of my insomnia to being told my grandad died in his sleep. I was 6 when he died and it scared me.
We also had loads of animals over the years and I saw many animals being "put to sleep" at the vets. I used to get very upset at the use of that phrase and would never ever say it myself. So in my case I did find it upsetting and confusing and it has caused lifelong sleep difficulties.

Loon? Made an arse of herself? Unhealthily obsessed?

For fuck's sake is this place an empathy free zone nowadays?

OP I'm sorry you've had such awful responses. I think you've been entirely correct to complain. Having had to explain death to autistic toddlers I also consulted Winston's Wish and was given the 'don't use sleep' advice.

pTS is standard vetinary terminology. This was a horse who died, not a human. Op it is your job as a parent to elaborate and explain in your own way to your ds about death.

Yabu. Sorry for your loss op

YANBU

Sorry for your loss OP. This episode has been around a long while. I first saw it with my 4 year old daughter who had recently been bereaved (sister and grandparents). She was extremely upset by the use of gone to sleep and anxious. Thankfully I was also with her and immediately explained. I had used the resources the OP mentioned and had help from several other professionals in person. I am saddened that they failed to research this properly. I also complained and got a standard reply which didn't address my concerns. I know others who have also complained.

I saw it again with her younger brother late last year so I again complained. It did spark a 'death' conversation with him and I have no problem discussing death with him as he is naturally inquisitive. As a parent of a child severely affected by multiple bereavements, I welcome any programmes discussing the topic of death responsibly as all conversation helps. Using terminology widely accepted to be damaging by professionals is not responsible.

On the subject of vets using the term pts - it is covered at some vet schools that it is not appropriate to use it with children present nor any reference to sleep. However it is a widely used term.

Of course people go through the sleep and don't wake up. That's not saying sleep killed them - It's a basic statement of fact. If you die during your sleep, you do not wake up from the sleep you went to. How utterly absurd to claim otherwise.

YABU and the response looks fine to me.

Yabu. I've seen this episode and thought it was dealt with well and she clearly says "dobbin died" . There's no confusing.

Ive seen it. Its fine, as is bbc reply.

YANBU I've always avoided the use of the 'sleeping' analogy when it comes to death and children as I feel it's too complicated and likely to cause problems.

As adults we know exactly what 'dead' and 'death' mean. Children are possibly hearing the words for the first time and learning what they mean. Comparing it to something well known like sleep, is asking for trouble.

Their reply was very polite.
Sorry for your loss but i think yabvu.

Agree with the OP

I still haven't got over the death of Aunty Mabel's dog in Come Outside, and that was 15 years ago.

Random wait - Pippin died??!