to want help dealing with the "fuck you" response I just got from cbeebies re woolly & tig complaint?

[Disgruntledfromblahblah]

There is an episode of Woolly & Tig called Dobbin shown a few days ago. It is about a horse dying, all very simplified but the only explanation of death given is that Dobbin "was happy and went to sleep".

Luckily I was in the room to hear this and able to counteract the bullshit by telling my 4yo that sleep and death are not the same. Having had to deal with a death in the family recently I thought it was widely accepted now that you should never associate death and sleep where children are concerned because it causes confusion and upset. I called bbc complaints immediately to ask them not to show this episode again (they quite often double up on some shows during the day and I do not want another child to be confused by this) and do their homework before raising the topic of grief. I clearly explained that I have no problem with them using the subject of death but I did expect it to be done in an educated manner not using backwards terminology which will cause more harm than good.

This morning I got a brush off email and the episode is still displayed on iplayer so presumably will be shown again elsewhere. Please can I have some help here, I am not sure how best to answer this apart from telling them thanks for nothing and given their ignorance I have no choice but to escalate to mn!! Maybe if they get more complaints they will update their grief management protocol beyond the 1950s?

Here is the brush off email response I got this morning;

[email protected]

Dear Disgruntled

Thank you for getting in touch with us about Woolly and Tig.

Firstly, we’d like to say that we're very sorry to hear of your terrible loss ... We would certainly never set out to cause any distress, and we’re sorry that it’s had that effect.

The reason that the subject of dying was covered is that it's one which, from time-to-time, arises in the lives of children when, for example, pets die or older members of the family pass. By showing somebody else's experience (in this case, Tig's) it can help children to begin to process the difficult concept in a way which is distanced from their own immediate surroundings. We felt that using "Woolly and Tig" was a good way to help gently explain the subject in a way which younger viewers with no direct experience of the situation could start to grasp.

Although the auntie does indeed describe Dobbin as having gone to sleep, it is made clear that Dobbin was very old and in a lot of pain.

We've had some very positive feedback from parents and care-givers who tell us that this episode has helped them to begin to explain the topic to small children in their family, but we're very sorry that it hasn't been so helpful in your situation.

Thanks again for contacting us with your concerns, and rest assured we will take your comments into consideration if we should address such topics in the future.

Kind Regards

CBeebies
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

I have seen the episode in the past and was very surprised at the link that was made between sleep and death. I too was of the understanding that advice for explaining death to children is to steer away from metaphors like this.

You were right to raise your concerns with the BBC. However this episode has been shown several times in the past and I assume complaints have been low. On this basis I would say that their response was reasonable.
It may be worth you highlighting the episode to a charity that specialises in bereavement to see if they want to explain to the BBC why aunties explanation is not a great example to be setting.

Have some of you even read the OP or her subsequent posts?

She did not object to the programme dealing with death. In fact I bet she welcomes it given her recent bereavment. What she objected to was the way the subject was dealt with in a way that is potentially confusing and frightening for children and in a way that goes completely against what the professionals in this field recommend.

It wasn't a fuck you email but it does fail to understand the point of the OP's complaint.

Excellent post miscellaneousassortment

HoraceCope sadly many preschoolers are forced to have "know about death" by circumstances. And the way it is dealt with can have very long lasting effects

How I explained death to 4yo-

People use different ways to describe death and dying, sometimes we say dead, sometimes we say passed away, sometimes we say gone to heaven, and sometimes, especially for animals we say put to sleep or gone to sleep.

They all essentially mean the same thing though, and thats because no one knows what happens when we die. Some people believe we go to heaven with angels or the stars with loved ones, some people believe we come back to be born again, and some people believe we go for a long sleep where we have happy dreams forever. What do you think?

Then sometimes I get questioned on each of these scenarios.

She's never been afraid of dying in her sleep or dying in any way and she thinks shes going to the stars when shes very old which while not what I believe, i'm fine with. She'll have plenty of time when she is older to re-question life and death and I think its important to answer as truthfully as possible.

There are alot of bad things in this world and while on the most part I agree ignorance is bliss, I think its important that should they ask, they're given a truthful explanation and why said bad things should really worry them.

For example, explain that gone to sleep doesn't actually mean they have just died in their sleep, its just sometimes its makes those who are sad they're not around anymore feel a bit better to think of them as sleeping and having happy dreams.

Also, I don't think the BBCs response was a "fuck you" in any way shape or form.

And trapper that is a godd idea. The BBC might listen to a respected charity in the field

Thanks Yellow.

I've been dealing with this myself as a close family member died a month ago. My 4 year old doesn't have the luxury of not being exposed to stuff like this until he's older, so I've had to get informed, fast.

I'm very glad that the OP posted about this as I'll make sure my child doesn't watch it. It probably doesn't seem a big deal until you're in that situation, and then it really really is.

I am surprised that CBeebies/ BBC doesn't already have clear guidelines on how to handle death and bereavement for children.

Perhaps one of the charities could get involved in updating / creating some protocols to avoid this happening again.

I agree with the OP - the response has missed the point that she isn't complaining about the death, but that death was equated with sleep contrary to the advice of any organisation dealing with the subject.

And the BBC do pull episodes - the Teletubbies never have Jimmy Savile on any more, for example.

Sorry for your loss OP, and I can completely understand why you feel the way you do, but FWIW, I think their response was an attempt to show that they had considered your position but wanted to show that they had had praise for the episode as well and weren't just dismissing your concerns out of hand.

It is always going to be a tricky subject, and whilst the bereavement charities have a lot of experience in guiding parents and children through these hard times, there is no real 'one size fits all' solution which can be universally applied.

I did not see the episode in question, but from the paragraph that you transcribed in an earlier post it sounds as though they actually used the word 'died' but then perhaps softened it with the part about him going to sleep for younger/more sensitive viewers in order to give parents the option of not discussing death with a child who had seen it.

The problem with beaming a show like that into homes is that you just never know who might see it - a parent who is recently bereaved with a small child who they feel may not be ready for 'the talk' might want to avoid talking about it all together and choose to explain that the donkey was just asleep whereas a parent whose child is aware of death can explain in more detail. Inevitably in trying to cover all angles they will still get it wrong as far as someone is concerned, so I hope you can take solace from the fact that some other viewers found it helpful.

Notcitrus that is not correct. While they did give background info about why they thought it necessary to deal with death which might have seemed irrelevant, they went on to explain that they viewed the sleep reference as acceptable because of the context it was portrayed in. Again, one might disagree with their position, but they quite clearly did not ignore that aspect of the complaint.

Jimmy Saville never appeared in the Teletubbies...

Jimmy Saville never appeared in the Teletubbies...

No, it was a character in The Tweenies dressing up as JS and doing an impression of him! Clearly, the Tweenies is an old programme for that to be included as a joke for the parents in the first place.

Although I am PMSL at the idea of Jimmy Saville actually turning up on Teletubbies, bearing in mind there were no human characters or anything on that show

The op's concerns are valid, I just don't agree with pulling the episode off air.

MiaowTheCat
That's a bloody ridiculous accusation to make on MN with no proof whatsoever! Are you in the habit of spreading gossip and lies?

Plenty of posters including myself feel that the programme was badly conceived and the response to the OP from the BBC confirms that even more.

They chose to make a programme aimed at pre-schoolers about the death of an animal.

They should have done their research properly.
No pathetic excuses allowed. They're hardly short of funds!

OP. Just watched the episode. YANBU at all.

Euphamistic explanations and descriptions of death are harmful to children and cause them confusion and fear.

Auntie Shona's explanations of Dobbin's death include all the bad things you are not supposed to say:

"not here"
"gone away"
"went to sleep"
"won't see him again"

The "explanation" given by Woolly towards the end primarily operates at the emotional level, and is aimed at Tig's upset and tears. It doesn't give an actual explanation of the mechanics of death. I took the pain and old references to be aimed at Tig being less upset, not as any part of an explanation that death can come where there is pain and old age. Indeed, Woolly repeats the sleep/death metaphor by saying that Dobbin is "happy in his dreams".

I think this is really outdated and irresponsible programming. On an individual level it could be at best confusing to a recently or about to be bereaved child. At worst it could cause real damage.

I think YANBU for flagging it.

I'll have a scout round in the academic literature for some references and put together a letter of complaint too. I'm actually quite outraged.

Outraged? Really? Disagreement, even disapproval, sure, but 'outrage' is probably something we could do with tempering a little in our society these days.

This is ridiculous. What would be better? The vet killed Dobbin? The vet put a bullet into Dobbin's head and killed him.

The point is that the OP's incredulity at the fact the BBC won't pull an episode at her request. Massive sense of entitlement!

No.

"Dobbin is very old, and has been ill and in a lot of pain. They took him to the Vet, and the Vet said that he was very very sorry but he could not make Dobbin better. They talked about it and agreed with the Vet that he could give Dobbin an injection which would help him to die peacefully and quietly while they were cuddling him.

They knew they would all be very sad and would miss Dobbin a lot. They took photos of Dobbin and made him a little grave that they could visit"

Or something along those lines - I'm sure there are plenty of organisations who offer much better guidance on this. The opposite of taking this episode off the TV is not "the vet killed Dobbin" is it, really.

I think the response is polite but agree it doesn't address the issue.

As OP says the "message" in the programme flies in the face of advice from Winstons Wish who I think would reasonably be most peoples go to for advice when a child is bereaved.

As to saying that the programme won't be pulled because of cost here's two questions: how much does a Top Gear Special take to make? And how many times do you think the BBC will allow the slope on the bridge episode to be repeated?

Yes, I am - because the message is harmful. And it is a highly vulnerable section of the population (recently or about to be bereaved young children) who will be harmed by it.

As for pulling the episode - in the face of empirical evidence and expert opinion that states that these messages are harmful, yes I believe it should be pulled. Responsible programming should be prepared to do this. It is not a question of pulling an episode because 'someone doesn't like it'.

I agree it shouldn't just be a case of saying it was expensive to make so it continues to be.

The BBC, or any programme maker! should be looking to avoid a costly mistake by undertaking research BEFORE they commit costs.

In this case they could have achieved that by consulting bereavement experts.

And of course we don't need a vivid depiction of the horse being PTS with a bolt gun to the head for the hysterics that are suggesting that.

I used Pts on purpose there.

Similarly though, it's not likely that large swathes if the junior population are going to be scarred by this - definitely some hysterics on either side of this one. That's not to say it's a non-issue entirely, but please keep some perspective.