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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope we look back on this in horror?

674 replies

Fanfeckintastic · 03/02/2015 23:31

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

OP posts:
LadyRainicorn · 05/02/2015 15:13

I have considered pro-'lifers' positions. Here and in other forums. I have nothing better than the many well reasoned well written posts which you have not understood either delibrately or not I can't tell. Pro lifers are obsessed with women as incubators. There seems to be a corresponding lack of obsession with helping prevent the cause of the pregnancy, preventing poverty in childhood, fuck me even preventing poor maternal and obstrectrìc care.

It's all about woman as a vassal.

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 05/02/2015 15:13

bumbley I started to write a reply but then gave up. You don't believe in a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body, you don't see them as humans with feelings and autonomy, simply mere vessels purely there to carry a foetus at any cost, and from the sounds of it nothing much is going to change your mind is it?

KidLorneRoll · 05/02/2015 15:13

No, they aren't. I've just checked. I can't find a single poster saying the limit should be extended.

You were the one who introduced the term extremist into the thread, and people have just used that term because, frankly, using the term extremist to define someone who is pro-choice is rather silly.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/02/2015 15:16

I can't see Bumbly how your view differs from those you accuse of being extremists. You are quite happy for a woman to carry to term when she knows said child will at best have a couple of hours, at worst be still born.
How does that view demonstrate your compassion?

KidLorneRoll · 05/02/2015 15:16

You're deflecting, anyway. Why do you think withdrawing access to safe abortions is a good idea? Do you want desperate people putting themselves at risk for no good reason? Does that make the world a better place?

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 15:21

Lady,
" Pro lifers are obsessed with women as incubators" FALSE

"There seems to be a corresponding lack of obsession with helping prevent the cause of the pregnancy, preventing poverty in childhood, fuck me even preventing poor maternal and obstrectrìc care." FALSE

"It's all about woman as a vassal." (sic) FALSE

If that's the impression you have gotten from all the pro-lifers positions you have considered then you need to keep reading. Perhaps take your "they're all woman haters" glasses off while you do it.

Will "you don't see them as humans with feelings and autonomy, simply mere vessels purely there to carry a foetus at any cost" FALSE

leedy · 05/02/2015 15:22

YANBU, OP. I'm Irish, still live here, and remember being on the X case protests in 1992. Was out protesting again last year and felt tempted to make a banner saying I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M STILL PROTESTING AGAINST THIS SHIT. 19 year old me would have been horrified at how little had changed.

I don't think we can even blame the church any more (and I get pretty pissed off by the non-Irish articles I've read that basically do the "what do you expect, the Irish are all virulently Catholic and priest-ridden and hate women" thing, ignoring the fact that hardly anyone is a practicing Catholic here any more), it's cowardly politicians who are afraid of angering the incredibly vocal anti-choice minority by having a referendum to repeal the 8th.

Dawndonnaagain · 05/02/2015 15:26

As usual Bumbley you're not answering anything. False, does not an answer make. It's an assertion, there's a difference. Unfortunately it's because you don't have a valid answer. There isn't one. We all know that.

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 05/02/2015 15:31

So if its FALSE bumbley then what is true? How do you view women?

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 15:37

Not as unfeeling, non-humans with no autonomy that act as mere vessels for carrying foetuses. HTH

If you don't want to derail the thread why don't you stop asking me questions about my opinion. You won't agree with me and I don't expect you to.

LadyRainicorn · 05/02/2015 15:44

I've gained a lot of these, as you say, impressions of pro-lifers from reading what seemed like a metric fuckton of material, including news reports, party political statements and lots and lots of vitrolic web material. You are not the only pro lifer around. You however, will sit and deflect, raise straw man arguements, and just in general be very disingenuous about your purpose here. I would have marginally more respect for you if you would admit that you don't believe that women deserve bodily autonomy and that you judge women for having abortions and that (I suspect) you probably judge women for having sex. You judge.

AskBasil · 05/02/2015 15:45

I've considered the position of the pro-forced birthers and I just disagree with it.

For me, it comes down to women's autonomy. The concept that a woman should not be able to decide whether she carries a baby in her belly or not, is very closely related to whether she is allowed to wear what she wants without being punished, have the right to have sex with whom she wants (as long as her chosen partner wants sex with her) without being punished and have the right to refuse sex she doesn't want.

The urge to limit her control over her body takes different forms, but it all comes from one place - the distrust of women as being capable of making their own decisions about their own lives.

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 15:53

Oh don't be ridiculous Lady - "judge women for having sex"? Why do you jump to such silly conclusions? And I do not think that women 'do not deserve bodily autonomy - what rot! Why the obsession with my opinions and the need to make false assumptions and accusations? I don't share your opinion - can we get over that and move on?

Actually AskBasil, I think it more comes from the respect and recognition of all human life. It's perhaps unfortunate(if you want to think of it like that - I don't) that it's only women who can bear children so it seems unbalanced in the impact it can have on them in comparison to men but I don't think it is because woman aren't trusted or are considered incapable of making decisions.

LadyRainicorn · 05/02/2015 15:53

Shit, I'm sorry, I've gone right up to mad frothing line.

I don't even know why this makes me rage so much - I've never been in the terrible situation of having to make that choice. But it's a choice I want available to me. And my daughters. And I want it to be safe. And judgement free, I don't give a shiny shit when or why you have an abortion. I want those other things I said earlier (no childhood poverty, less wanted pregnancies better care).

I'm going to try and step away. I'd like to say thanks for all the well written posts on this subject.

Willferrellisactuallykindahot · 05/02/2015 15:57

If you don't want to derail the thread why don't you stop asking me questions about my opinion. You won't agree with me and I don't expect you to.

Wow, what an articulate anti abortion argument Hmm

KidLorneRoll · 05/02/2015 16:00

How is removing the right to abortion respecting and recognising the lives of the women affected, exactly?

It's basically saying "nope, your opinion doesn't matter. Mine does, so here is 9 months carrying that baby you don't want before either giving it up into a care service that is ill-equipped at best, or alternatively you can seek out an illegal abortion or perhaps you can live with a child you neither want or cannot support. Good job we don't have an issue with an over-populated plane....oh, forget I said that.

Oh, by the way, you don't actually know me so don't expect me to actually help out in any way. Enjoy!"

How wonderfully caring.

Number3cometome · 05/02/2015 16:09

This is probably going to go down in flames, but I am going to say it anyway.

The woman should have a right to choose because she is the one carrying the baby. Majority of the time she is also an adult too - an adult who has the right to vote, make decisions and who possibly is already loved by many others on this earth (friends, brothers, sisters, parents, existing children)

The baby is a life, yes, but it has not 'lived' life in the outside world.
It does not know what it is to see, to understand love, to experience life as we do every single day.

The fact that it will not go beyond the womb is sad, very very sad, however, it cannot make decisions for itself, therefore the mother who is carrying that baby has to make those decisions.
The baby's life cannot come above the mothers, because in those terms, the life is not equal.

Until the baby is born, there is no guarantee that any baby will make it to birth. That is a sad and true fact. The mother is already a living and breathing person.

It is not for someone who does not know or understand the mother to make that decision.

I would like to add that I am currently pregnant with a baby which was very much wanted and planned for. I feel sad thinking about abortion, for the baby yes, but also for the mother who likely would have gone through an enormous turmoil in making that decision.

But it still must be her choice.

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 16:10

It wasn't intended to be an 'anti-abortion' argument. It's intended to tell you to stop complaining about me derailing the thread while you continue to ask me questions about my opinion on various scenarios.

Kid, it's recognising the right to life of the foetus - that they too are human. I take it that you wouldn't consider culling children as an alternative to putting them into care if someone decides that they don't want them or can't support them? Should the value of a human life be dependent on how convenient or wanted it is?

Number3cometome · 05/02/2015 16:15

I take it that you wouldn't consider culling children as an alternative to putting them into care if someone decides that they don't want them or can't support them? Should the value of a human life be dependent on how convenient or wanted it is?

Again, that is totally taking it out of context. Children who have already been BORN are alive and living life in the outside world.

A foetus is not - it does not see life as we do, it does not experience life as we do. You have to get yourself out of the mindset that this is murder, as in murdering someone who is alive and living outside of the womb. This is NOT the same thing.

GahBuggerit · 05/02/2015 16:16

the anti women extremists who think a woman should have to carry a pregnancy even if it wont survive scare the living shit out of me, truly. strip that back and youve basically got evil, right there.

and id LOVE to see an answer to sashh's excellent post upthread. why hasnt that been answered? is it because it requires a cogent response rather than just vomiting on the keyboard and hoping for the best?

AskBasil · 05/02/2015 16:16

Nobody has a right to life at the expense of the right of another human being.

That's why none of us are forced to donate our blood in order to save all the people who die in car accidents etc. every year.

Because our ownership of our own bodies as human beings is respected by every state on earth as far as I know, at least in theory.

It's only our ownership of our own bodies as non-default, slightly sub-standard human beings -women - that is contested. When it comes to doing the things ONLY women can do and men can't, then suddenly all those ownership rights are up for grabs.

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 16:18

Number, So do you agree with abortion up to full term then? A newborn isn't capable of seeing life as we do or experiencing life as we do either you know.

I haven't said it is murder.

BinToHellAndBack · 05/02/2015 16:20

I come from a Christian perspective of disagreeing with abortion. However, I would still say that many Christians are missing the point in the anti-abortion argument.

As Christians we should be passing on the message of God's love for humanity and not much else. I don't think that getting involved in anti-abortion allows this message to get through. Abortion may be something we disagree with, but so are lots of things (including many, many things we do ourselves in spite of disagreeing with them).

In fact, at the moment I feel the pro-life movement is pushing a lot of people away from God as it is (possibly unintentionally) coming across as being about hate, shame and blame. These are NOT Christian messages. God's love is. So whilst I understand the sentiment behind the movement, I feel the actioning of it is sometimes fundamentally un-Christian.

However, I would say that with abortion available on the NHS, the pro-choice stance needs to be extended to healthcare professionals, not just pregnant women.

If women are afforded the choice of whether to have an abortion, those working in women's health (from GPs to A&E and obs & gynae staff) need to be given the choice of whether they are involved in the abortion (from referrals to performing the procedure). There is currently some say, but not to a satisfactory extent if it's something you personally disagree with.

PetulaGordino · 05/02/2015 16:22

Yanbu OP

Women's bodily autonomy is at the heart of achieving equality

Number3cometome · 05/02/2015 16:22

So do you agree with abortion up to full term then? A newborn isn't capable of seeing life as we do or experiencing life as we do either you know.

Under some tragic circumstances that are necessary, yes I do.