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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope we look back on this in horror?

674 replies

Fanfeckintastic · 03/02/2015 23:31

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 16:23

Ask, I would say 'at the expense of the right to life of another human being.

Why do you keep bringing this down to a women vs man thing?

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 16:25

I meant for any circumstances Number, not the ones currently allowed in law eg to save the life of the woman (although at full term they can usually attempt to save both lives) If you think a foetus can't 'experience life' until they are actually born do you support the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy at full term for any reason she chooses?

PetulaGordino · 05/02/2015 16:27

the fetus should be supported by a woman's body with the woman's consent. she should be entitled to withdraw that consent at any time, for whatever reason.

bumbleymummy · 05/02/2015 16:27

"Women's bodily autonomy is at the heart of achieving equality"

Perhaps part of the problem here is that some people don't want to accept that women are different to men?

Bin "If women are afforded the choice of whether to have an abortion, those working in women's health (from GPs to A&E and obs & gynae staff) need to be given the choice of whether they are involved in the abortion (from referrals to performing the procedure). There is currently some say, but not to a satisfactory extent if it's something you personally disagree with."

I agree.

PetulaGordino · 05/02/2015 16:30

"It's only our ownership of our own bodies as non-default, slightly sub-standard human beings -women - that is contested. When it comes to doing the things ONLY women can do and men can't, then suddenly all those ownership rights are up for grabs."

totally agree basil

Number3cometome · 05/02/2015 16:31

If you think a foetus can't 'experience life' until they are actually born do you support the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy at full term for any reason she chooses?

Do I support it? Yes.

I can't imagine anyone would make that choice without very serious thought though.

leedy · 05/02/2015 16:32

FWIW, Canada has no legal limits in terms of how late in pregnancy an abortion can be performed - it is a purely medical decision between the woman and her doctor. This has not led to a huge number of late term abortions (in fact I think their abortion rate in general isn't particularly high).

PetulaGordino · 05/02/2015 16:36

i remember reading about that leedy

people just don't trust women's judgement at all

leedy · 05/02/2015 16:38

Exactly. You'd think from some quarters that if the legal limit was raised there'd be hordes of women suddenly deciding at 7 months gone that they didn't want to be pregnant any more and marching in demanding terminations.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 05/02/2015 16:39

If you don't support a woman's right to make choices about her own body and wellbeing, should not be working in women's health.

KidLorneRoll · 05/02/2015 16:46

The idea that someone who is pro-choice would by default support "culling of children" is utterly preposterous.

A foetus is not a child. It's a potential child which has no thoughts or feelings of it's own. The mother, on the other hand, does. She - and ideally, the father as well but ultimately it's the woman's body - is the single best person to decide whether the child is wanted and is going to get a half decent shot at life. Someone sitting on a silver-lined cloud pretending that everything in life is rosy and nice is most definitely not,

Fairly obviously, once that foetus becomes a child than matters change somewhat.

I'm slightly amazed I had to clarify that, in all honesty.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 05/02/2015 16:52

I'm one of these so-called extremists.

I'm not pro-abortion or pro-abortion to term, I'm pro choice. I don't love abortions, but I love the fact that in this country, we have the right to choose.

It is as simple as; if you are anti-choice (sorry, "pro life"), you are anti-women. You can argue that until the cows come home but it's true - if you support the rights of the state to restrict a woman's rights over her own body, you cannot call yourself pro-women.

BinToHellAndBack · 05/02/2015 16:54

Ifyourhappy - you can wholeheartedly support a woman's choice to make her own decision without having to agree with it. Surely that's exactly what pro-choice is all about? Not forcing your own views on others...

So why should doctors be forced to be involved in abortion? By saying they shouldn't work in womens health you effectively say that you shouldn't work as a doctor if you don't agree with abortion (no choice there!), as most will cycle through specialities that encounter it even if they don't settle there.

The 'choice' needs to apply across the board.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 05/02/2015 16:57

I think a doctor should be allowed to object to performing an abortion, but only if he can refer the woman immediately to another doctor who will be willing to refer/perform the abortion.

Bodily autonomy of the woman should always trump the religious/moral objections of the doctor/anyone else.

LadyRainicorn · 05/02/2015 16:59

Is a doctor allowed to object to treating a gay man suffering from an injury gained during gay sex due to moral objections? Should they be allowed?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 05/02/2015 17:00

How can you care for women when you fundamentally don't agree their right to have autonomy over their own body?

Belgirl · 05/02/2015 17:01

This topic is so contentious and upsetting, I always feel completely torn.
I genuinely couldn’t abort a living being inside me, no matter what the circumstances. But I am so grateful that I’ve never been in the awful position of having to make that choice and can’t imagine imposing my opinion on another woman whose situation and life choices I can’t possibly know or understand unless I walked in her shoes.

On the one hand, my Grandmother was raped as a young girl, and if she had had an abortion, my lovely Mother, my brothers, myself and my children just wouldn’t exist. For previous posters who’ve called that a “meaningless point” in comparison to the injustice or lack of compassion of ‘forced births’, come on!!! I’m sorry but that’s not some abstract argument. I obviously can’t look at this part of the debate objectively, but I can see the amazing potential of several full, happy lives that could have been snuffed out by one medical procedure decades ago.
As for the many posts dismissing adoption (e.g. “It's no good saying that a child conceived as the result of rape is innocent and shouldn't be aborted, because there's no recognition of what it could mean to that child subsequently finding out that their father was a rapist. There have been occasional posts here from MNers who don't know who their father is, and their mother won't say, and they're left wondering why.”), it’s just not true to say adoption is not a viable alternative. Sadly it’s not a magical win-win solution that leaves everyone happy, but it can’t be dismissed as a possible least bad outcome for an unwanted pregnancy. My poor Grandmother struggled with the secret of her experience for most of her life, but she lived an incredibly full and exciting life involving amazing travel and a loving marriage. Then after my Mother and she were reunited (a process only possible if mutually agreeable and made horribly difficult due to red tape and outdated Irish laws on the subject at the time) she took great joy in getting to know our family over 10 years before her death. And of course my lovely Mam was very upset to hear that she was conceived from a rape, but that doesn’t mean that it would have been preferable for her not to live rather than learn that! This is just my family’s experience, and is not true for all, but my Mother has met lots of other adopted people and their birth mothers who all have positive stories of adoption to tell.

On the other hand, my wonderful friend had to go through the awful experience of travelling alone to England for a secret abortion as a student and my heart breaks for what she went through and the shame and stress she felt, never mind the logistics and cost of it all. The only regret I feel about that is that she didn’t confide in us, her friends, at the time so we could have supported her when it counted, even though we did our best after she’d told us a few months later.
Abortion is an awful last resort choice that I don’t envy anyone having to make, but all the vitriol and nastiness on both sides of the debate is unnecessarily cruel in my opinion. There’s too much strong feeling to be able to agree, but some of the hardline positions of pro-lifers and pro-choicers are mind-boggling! How can a so-called pro-lifer justify terrorizing vulnerable girls and women with pictures of aborted babies, or even murdering abortion clinic staff? Or how can a pro-choicer celebrate the destruction of a tiny, helpless foetus just to avoid inconveniencing a woman’s lifestyle (outside of medical, or other dire circumstances) or label anyone who disagrees a misogynist?
This is never going to be a black or white issue, no matter how strongly either side of the debate feels about it.
Sorry for such a long post.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 05/02/2015 17:02

I think the difference Lady (and I say this, as I said, as a pro-choice 'extremist') is that in your hypothetical situation, the doctor quite rightly has to treat the person for injuries despite disagreeing with their lifestyle choices. They can kid themselves, if they wish, that the patient isn't gay, and has got the injury some other way.

In this situation, the doctor is actually performing the abortion, or making the referral for the woman to have an abortion - they're performing the act they find unacceptable, rather than treating someone who has performed the act they find unacceptable, IYSWIM.

AskBasil · 05/02/2015 17:03

"Why do you keep bringing this down to a women vs man thing?"

LOL.

Where do I even start?

The only reason we're even debating this, is because the whole of women's oppression has been based on our difference to men - the fact that men defined themselves as default human and women as the "other" human, the defective, morally incomplete, physically incomplete also-ran human. Our female bodies, with their capacity to bear and feed children, is something men have sought to control for almost the whole of recorded history. Instead of our capacity to produce life being a source of respect and honour, it became a taboo, a source of slavery and a useful means for men to control us.

The idea that women, not men (in the form of the legal and medical professions) might actually control our female bodies, is still profoundly horrifying at a subconscious level to many people and the sentimental crap around abortion is born of that distrust of women. We're still not really held to be full, real humans. The fact that anyone thinks it's OK to force a woman to go through 10 months of pregnancy and then birth, is evidence of that.

leedy · 05/02/2015 17:09

"inconveniencing a woman’s lifestyle"

I actually said I wasn't going to continue in this discussion because it makes me too bloody mad, but this particular mealy-mouthed trope REALLY. FUCKING. INFURIATES me. "Lifestyle" sounds like wanting to get a new set of the trendiest curtains or jet off to Capri, something only the most frivolous of women would consider over a foetus - rather than something like, ooh, being able to support your other children, or finish college, or take a new job abroad, or move on from your alcoholic husband, or not carry an anencephalic foetus to term. "Inconvenience" also makes it sound like a teeny weeny little trouble that only a selfish callous bitch wouldn't put up with, as opposed to the frequently more realistic "total life/health bomb going off, with possible added child to support for the next eighteen years". Even if the woman does the anti-choicer "easy option!" and gives the baby up for adoption - you do know that going through with a pregnancy is considerably more dangerous than a termination? My last pregnancy was a much-wanted one and it nearly killed me.

(and yes, if somebody really doesn't want to be pregnant so they can jet off to Capri, that's their decision, not mine)

BinToHellAndBack · 05/02/2015 17:10

The gay man analogy doesn't quite fit as you are not asking the doctor to 'do' something they don't agree with.

Treating someone who has done something you may or may not agree happens all the time, but then you are treating the injury.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be anti-choice at all, we should all be free to make our own choices

LadyRainicorn · 05/02/2015 17:12

Thanks Moomin.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 05/02/2015 17:12

I am pro choice on this.
But if someone is "pro life-"/ anti abortion I can see why they would hold the same view about a pregnancy resulting from rape as from consenting sex.
Because if the fetus is a being with rights then s/he is afforded protection. Terminating the pregnancy does not "un rape" the woman.
Although i dont believe abortion should be illegal, for lots of reasons, i can see that someone who is anti abortion can still feel compassion for the pregnant woman.

PetulaGordino · 05/02/2015 17:17

"I fancy going on the rides at Alton towers in a couple of weeks, so I'm going to terminate my 37 week pregnancy"

Said no woman ever

And if she did, why is it my business?

TheRealAmandaClarke · 05/02/2015 17:19

Well, that is a very well put post askbasil