To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Thinking so little of women as to appear to actively hate them and want to punish them, makes little logical sense Bumbley, but somehow you manage it over and over again every time this conversation comes up.

"the chances of it happening are so incredibly small as to be almost non-egistant" (sic)

There's that logical argument again. I may as well say that I support the idea of monkeys colonising the moon because the chances of it happening are so incredibly small

bumbley you seem to be putting a disproportionate amount of focus on the (pretty much hypothetical) idea of terminating full term pregnancies, and not much on actually arguing against the UKs abortion laws as they stand (which I assume from you early posts, you disagree with?)

You seem to jump to conclusions about me over and over again ifyoure.

I think it's important to draw attention to what people who consider themselves to be genuinely pro-choice want to achieve. I did mention my opinion on the current UK laws a couple of posts ago.

Ok bumbley so if a woman is say, 9 weeks pregnant with a baby that, for whatever reason, she does not want, then do you or do you not think she has the right to end that pregnancy?

I don't think anyone here is advocating abortions with absolutely no controls, are they? You seem to be arguing with thin air.

And, once again, whilst it's lovely to imagine a world where abortion is unnecessary, until such a time that contraception is 100% effective, nobody gets abused or nobody simply makes a mistake there will always be a need for abortion. The question is whether you make it legal - and therefore safe - or not. Banning it doesn't make it go away.

What people who are pro-choice want to achieve is for women to be allowed control over their bodies. To have full autonomy. Because women are people too.

You do this every single time there is an abortion topic bumbley. It's fucking exhausting listening to your woman hating tripe every.single.time.

It's like some kind of 'if you let women decide then they'll go around murdering babies all day long!!1!' broken record.

I wonder if bumbly has ever read this

Regarding when abortions take place in the UK.

91% - looking at the 2011 figures - took place before 13 weeks.

Just 0.1 % took place after 24 weeks, and this only happens if there is grave danger to the life of the mother or there is substantial risk the child will be born with serious - usually life threatening - problems. The number of abortions after 20 weeks that are due to - for want of a better term - lifestyle choices is practically non-existent. It's done to save the life of the mother or because the child has no chance at any sort of quality of life.

What possible good would lowering the limit given these facts do, other than put women in danger?

It's simple isn't it?

If you don't agree with abortion don't have one.

But for everyone else the choice should be there.

I say that as a Catholic.

This thread is not about full term abortions. It is about whether or not women in Ireland should have a choice about what happens to their own bodies. However bumbleymummy seems hell bent on derailing it at all every turn.

It happens every time. She did it with several threads Thebabyfacedassasin was on and now I think she's not really ever going to read or think or consider anything from anyone else's perspective

What serin said.

I too am a sort of Catholic.

Will, it should be fairly obvious that I don't agree with abortion. These threads always end up getting sidelined with lots of posters asking my opinion on various different scenarios. I don't agree with abortion at all. I would like to see the limit in the UK drastically reduced(because I don't think they will ever outlaw it completely) and I would like to see the reduced limit applied across the board so that foetuses with disabilities have the same treatment as those without.

KidLorne, yes, they are. I've been on enough threads with them to know by now. They will proudly say that that is what they believe. A foetus has no right to life until its head/body emerges from the woman or its umbilical cord has been cut (take your pick - they vary a bit on this point).

ifyoure - I think one 'baby murder' because of the system you are promoting would be one too many and I don't know how anyone could stand by and allow it saying 'it's for the greater good'. I would rather you called me a 'woman-hater' 100 times (which no doubt you will over time) than to be associated with that.

KidLorne - the only reason you can have an abortion after 24 weeks is becasue the woman's life is in danger (And typcially they can attempt to save both lives at that point) or for foetal abnormality. Some people think that the limit needs to be extended to term for any reason.

You can have compassion for a woman who is in a situation of abuse or social deprivation without thinking that the 'solution' is to offer termination up to term. Supporting an idea in theory because you think it would never happen or because it is 'vanishingly rare' makes little logical sense and kind of weakens your argument.
Actually, you're wrong. I'm afraid this weakens yours. Logically, you support the argument, or you don't.
Taking the first sentence, you can have compassion for a woman who has been raped, but the solution isn't termination? If you are anti abortion at all costs, then you are not demonstrating compassion, you are enforcing. In other words you are continuing the abuse.
The second part of the statement is a nonsense, because one doesn't support an argument for only the reasons you have stated, ergo, your argument that it weakens said argument doesn't work.

Willferrell yes of course women in Ireland (and everywhere else in the world) should have full bodily autonomy.

Tell me Lady, have you ever read or thought or considered any pro-lifers positions? Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't considered your position. If anything, it was considering the positions MNers that brought me to the position I am at now so you can thank the extremists for that!

Will, we could equally say that this isn't a thread about rape or incest which are very rare instances for abortion as well yet those examples come up all the time on these threads. I want to be sure that people are aware what some of the posters on these threads actually believe. If I identified myself as 'pro-choice' and found out what some people think 'pro-choice' really is, I would be looking for a new label for myself pretty sharpish!

I personally wouldn't have an abortion unless it was for medical reasons, however, I do think that women should always have a choice.

The rules are outdated and draconian. I am very surprised that Ireland is living so far in the past in this respect.

Will, it should be fairly obvious that I don't agree with abortion.

So you don't think that a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body? You think that it's ok to force a woman to go through with pregnancy and birth completely and against her will? To go through invasive medical procedures and possible surgery when she doesn't want to?

Why?

I've not seen a post to suggest that people are campaigning for abortions up to full term. I'm not aware of any significant campaign for that to happen and - just like there is no way the abortion limit is going to come down any time soon - I very much doubt it's about to go up either.

Abortions happen and will always happen. If you take away a person's right to a safe abortion then too many people will just seek out unsafe procedures. That is the truth of the matter. It's naive in the extreme to think that banning them will stop them.

I respect - of course - your right to dislike abortion but unfortunately you don't get to tell other people that your opinion is more important than theirs when it comes to what they do with their own bodies. You get to choose what you do, but not for anyone else.

Number, Or you could say that the laws are advanced in terms of recognising the right to life of the foetus. Just another perspective for people to consider.

Will, because (to put it simply) I don't agree that one human has the right to terminate another human life. If you genuinely concerned about derailing this thread then you could just look up my opinion on other threads. I've answered any number of questions on various different scenarios.

KidLorne, all the posters proudly identifying themselves as 'extremists' or saying that they support abortion 'as early as possible and as late as necessary' are the ones who support the idea of abortion to full term.

bumbleymummy

Or you could say that the laws are advanced in terms of recognising the right to life of the foetus. Just another perspective for people to consider.

Even when the baby is not viable?